sierra@cis.ohio-state.edu (German Sierra) (05/13/91)
May the sacret heart of jesus be adore, golrified, love and preserved, throughout the world now and forever. Sacret heart of jesus pray for us. St .jude worker of miracles pray for us. St. jude help of the hopeless pray for us. They say if you pray this prayer 9 times a day and on the ninth day your prayer will be answered. Sierra ======================== bless him for he is king ========================
credmond@watmath.waterloo.edu (Chris Redmond) (05/14/91)
In article <May.13.02.06.46.1991.12100@athos.rutgers.edu> sierra@cis.ohio-state.edu (German Sierra) writes: >May the sacret heart of jesus be adore, golrified, love and preserved, >throughout the world now and forever. >Sacret heart of jesus pray for us. >St .jude worker of miracles pray for us. >St. jude help of the hopeless pray for us. > >They say if you pray this prayer 9 times a day and on the ninth day your prayer >will be answered. Depends what you mean by "answered", surely. If the prayer is "Please give me a tricycle," I'm afraid I don't believe it. If that were the way prayer worked, religion would be magic. If the prayer is "Please give me the right attitude," on the other hand, maybe it'll work. Praying nine times a day for nine days is likely to affect one's attitude positively.
mclane@oxy.edu (Craig Cunningham McLane) (05/19/91)
Concerning the prayer of St.Jude mentioned earlier: May the sacred heart of jesus be adored, glorified, loved and preserved, throughout the world now and forever. Sacred heart of Jesus pray for us. St. Jude worker of miracles pray for us. St. Jude help of the hopeless pray for us. They say if you pray this prayer 9 times a day and on the ninth day your prayer will be answered. I have never heard anything so directly against the Christian faith!! Why would anyone need to believe that Christ died for us... According to this the power to answer prayer is whoever prays, as opposed to the power being God's alone.
MNHCC@cunyvm.bitnet (05/22/91)
I agree with the objections to the Prayer to St. Jude, and could add more. However, it is more important to point out that that kind of prayer, known as a chain-letter prayer because it frequently includes a requirement to leave a copy of the prayer in a church for each of the nine days, is a superstition condemned by the Catholic Church. I have heard it condemned from the pulpit in Catholic churces and seen in condemned in Catholic newspapers and magazines. In one sense all prayers are answered by God, but that does not always mean we get what we ask for. A prayer that claims to be able to guarantee results is magic, not really a prayer, and it doesn't work. Marty Helgesen
romain@salt.pyramid.com (Romain Kang) (05/23/91)
In <May.18.22.57.00.1991.14230@athos.rutgers.edu> mclane@oxy.edu writes: | I have never heard anything so directly against the Christian faith!! | Why would anyone need to believe that Christ died for us... According | to this the power to answer prayer is whoever prays, as opposed to the | power being God's alone. I see several questions raised here. (I should add that I approach them from a Protestant perspective. As I understand it, the novena is actually a prayer to St. Jude to intercede with God on the requestor's behalf, just an American overseas might ask the consulate for assistance in dealing with the local government. As such, Roman Catholics might see a different set of issues.) First, does God show his love to everyone, even those without faith? It seems clear to me that the answer is yes. Consider the lilies of the field as an extreme example. Second, does prayer in the absence of faith truly constitute prayer? This is a tough question, and I don't have the time to consider it fully. However, you can picture of humans as being vessels of faith that are often empty because of our imperfections, but this should not be an insurmountable problem for God. Even though Christians sometimes (often?!) lack faith, I see this as an impediment to humans when we pray, but not to God. Finally, does God work according to some formula? The Christian Scientists seem to believe that there is an orderly correlation between their actions and God's responses. (I haven't looked closely at CS, so I can't properly comment on their beliefs or methods.) However, I'm wary of rule-based approaches to understanding God. Rather, I would rely on the integrity of God's fundamental covenants, but at the same time, consider them a framework for boundless creative potential. Peace, Romain
MNHCC@cunyvm.bitnet (05/26/91)
Romain, It is true that Catholics see asking St. Jude, St. Paul, St. Elizabeth Ann Seton, the Virgin Mary, or any other saint to pray for us is no different from asking another Christian here on Earth to pray for us. The saints in Heaven have died, in this world's terms, but they live in Christ, and Christ has conquered death. The problem with that novena to St. Jude is that it guarantees that God will grant the request being made. That is why the Catholic Church condemns that kind of "prayer" as superstition. This condemnation applies only to ones like that that guarantee results. In itself, a novena is a legitimate form of devotion. The word comes from the Latin word for nine, and a novena consists of praying the same prayers, or enganging in the same kind of devotion for nine consecutive days, the same day of the week for nine consecutive weeks, etc. There is nothing magic about the number nine. The nine days of a novena commenorate the nine days the Apostles spent in prayer between the Ascension and Pentecost. As a matter of practical psychology it is easier to persevere in some special prayer if one has a fixed, attainable goal. If someone says he will pray a special prayer every day for nine days, he probably will do it.He can then start another novena if he wants to. However, if he just decide to pray the prayer he may easily stop, and then give up. Marty Helgesen
dana@locus.com (Dana H. Myers) (06/02/91)
In article <May.26.01.31.44.1991.13241@athos.rutgers.edu> MNHCC@cunyvm.bitnet writes: >Romain, It is true that Catholics see asking St. Jude, St. Paul, >St. Elizabeth Ann Seton, the Virgin Mary, or any other saint to >pray for us is no different from asking another Christian here on >Earth to pray for us. The saints in Heaven have died, in this world's >terms, but they live in Christ, and Christ has conquered death. I would suggest that scriptual references to those who have suffered earthly death indicate they enter some sort of spiritual sleep waiting for judgement. While one can argue that the deceased live in Christ, I see no scriptural precendent to indicate they are capable of hearing or acting on prayer requests. -- * Dana H. Myers KK6JQ | Views expressed here are * * (213) 337-5136 | mine and do not necessarily * * dana@locus.com | reflect those of my employer *
anonymous@hmivax.humgen.upenn.edu (06/04/91)
In article <Jun.2.01.27.05.1991.16296@athos.rutgers.edu>, dana@locus.com (Dana H. Myers) writes: > I would suggest that scriptual references to those who have suffered > earthly death indicate they enter some sort of spiritual sleep waiting > for judgement. While one can argue that the deceased live in Christ, I > see no scriptural precendent to indicate they are capable of hearing or > acting on prayer requests. Would the story of Dives and Lazarus be a relevant reference? Not necessarily to answering prayer requests from those on earth, of course, but of being "awake" and aware of matters in the spiritual realm, at the very least. ************************************************************************ * Liz Broadwell (broadwel@penndrls.upenn.edu) * * * Department of English * Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam * * The University of Pennsylvania * * ************************************************************************
psburns@lims03.lerc.nasa.gov (MAUREEN BURNS) (06/05/91)
> >Would the story of Dives and Lazarus be a relevant reference? Not necessarily >to answering prayer requests from those on earth, of course, but of being Who is Dives? I don't remember in the Bible that the rich man who refused to feed the beggar Lazarus had a name. What translation is the name Dives used? MB [According to the Anchor Bible commentary on Luke, Dives is a deliberate misunderstanding of the Latin Vulgate "homo quidam erat dives", translating dives (rich?) as if it were a proper name. In almost all Greek manuscripts the man has no name. However in P75, the oldest Greek text of Lk, it says "named Neues". They comment that that name is unintelligible, and is possibly an abbreviated form of Nineues (Nineveh), which appears in an ancient Sahidic translation. von Harnack suggested it was a corruption of Phinehas, the name preserved in Priscillian and pseudo-Cyprian. The commentary mentions some even more desperate proposals that I won't go into. --clh]
hetyei@athena.mit.edu (Gabor Hetyei) (06/05/91)
{Someone proposed the story of Dives and Lazarus in response to a question about the state of people between death and the final judgement. --clh] I don't think those stories would be of any help. They happened before the Immolation of the Lamb. No soul was in Paradise before the death of our Savior. Peace, Gabor Hetyei
jhpb@garage.att.com (Joseph H Buehler) (06/05/91)
In article <Jun.2.01.27.05.1991.16296@athos.rutgers.edu> dana@locus.com (Dana H. Myers) writes: >Romain, It is true that Catholics see asking St. Jude, St. Paul, >St. Elizabeth Ann Seton, the Virgin Mary, or any other saint to >pray for us is no different from asking another Christian here on >Earth to pray for us. The saints in Heaven have died, in this world's >terms, but they live in Christ, and Christ has conquered death. I would suggest that scriptual references to those who have suffered earthly death indicate they enter some sort of spiritual sleep waiting for judgement. While one can argue that the deceased live in Christ, I see no scriptural precendent to indicate they are capable of hearing or acting on prayer requests. I suggest St. Michael, or some of the other angels, then. The angels are certainly not asleep. The great argument for this practice is the experience of the Catholic Church in the matter. Prayers addressed to Saints do get answered, and, historically speaking, the answers are sometimes of quite a spectacular nature.
oracle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Brian T. Coughlin) (06/07/91)
Re: Gabor Hetyei In article <Jun.5.00.23.26.1991.20817@athos.rutgers.edu> hetyei@athena.mit.edu (Gabor Hetyei) writes: > I don't think those stories would be of any help. They happened before >the Immolation of the Lamb. No soul was in Paradise before the death of our >Savior. Hi, Gabor! I've heard this assertion from many people, including my father. I always wondered: how does this belief jibe with the second book of Kings? "When the Lord was about to take Elijah up to Heaven in a whirlwind, he and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal." (2 Kings 2:1) "As they walked on conversing, a flaming chariot and flaming horses came between them, and Elijah went up to Heaven in a whirlwind. When Elisha saw it happen he cried out, 'My father! My father! Israel's chariots and drivers!'" (2 Kings 2:11-12) Just a point to ponder... ---- Take care! Sincerely, Brian Coughlin oracle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu
hetyei@athena.mit.edu (Gabor Hetyei) (06/07/91)
In article <Jun.5.00.26.44.1991.21806@athos.rutgers.edu>, jhpb@garage.att.com (Joseph H Buehler) writes: |> I would suggest that scriptual references to those who have suffered |> earthly death indicate they enter some sort of spiritual sleep waiting |> for judgement. While one can argue that the deceased live in Christ, I |> see no scriptural precendent to indicate they are capable of hearing or |> acting on prayer requests. Could you name please at least one of these scriptural references? Please keep in mind when looking for it taht now we are after the resurrection of Christ. Not to mention the fact that when the chosen apostles have seen Jesus with Moses and Eliyah, these deceased prophets did not look asleep at all. Gabor Hetyei
jhpb@garage.att.com (Joseph H Buehler) (06/10/91)
In article <Jun.6.23.12.34.1991.8426@athos.rutgers.edu> hetyei@athena.mit.edu (Gabor Hetyei) writes: In article <Jun.5.00.26.44.1991.21806@athos.rutgers.edu>, jhpb@garage.att.com (Joseph H Buehler) writes: |> I would suggest that scriptual references to those who have |>suffered earthly death indicate they enter some sort of spiritual |>sleep waiting for judgement. While one can argue that the deceased |>live in Christ, I see no scriptural precendent to indicate they are |>capable of hearing or acting on prayer requests. Could you name please at least one of these scriptural references? Please keep in mind when looking for it taht now we are after the resurrection of Christ. Not to mention the fact that when the chosen apostles have seen Jesus with Moses and Eliyah, these deceased prophets did not look asleep at all. The paragraph quoted above wasn't written by me, though the attribution suggests this.
hetyei@athena.mit.edu (Gabor Hetyei) (06/10/91)
[In response to something now lost in antiquity, Gabor Hetyei said > I don't think those stories would be of any help. They happened before >the Immolation of the Lamb. No soul was in Paradise before the death of our >Savior. Brian Coughlin responded with several passages from 2 Kings showing Elijah being taken to heaven. --clh] Oops! I think most of us must have thought of NT references about Jesus's soul descending to hell after his death and freeing some of the souls from there. I think this is the fact that settles in most peoples mind as if nobody have been in Paradise before the Redemption. Your quotation seems to contradict to this belief. On the other hand your reference might decide the question if the dead are "asleep". I don't think that when Elisha sees Israel's chariots and drivers, he sees sleeping people. Thanks again. Gabor Hetyei
ta00est@unccvax.uncc.edu (elizabeth s tallant) (06/15/91)
In article <Jun.5.00.26.44.1991.21806@athos.rutgers.edu>, jhpb@garage.att.com (Joseph H Buehler) writes: > > The great argument for this practice is the experience of the Catholic > Church in the matter. Prayers addressed to Saints do get answered, and, > historically speaking, the answers are sometimes of quite a spectacular > nature. I don't think that the part about praying to saints has anything to do with whether or not the prayer is answered. God knows that you are petitioning HIm for something, whether directly or indirectly, and He in His infinite mercy grants your request. You would do better to petition God directly, or ask for the Holy Spirit to pray for you. Elizabeth
MNHCC@cunyvm.bitnet (06/17/91)
Elizabeth, The Bible teaches us to pray for one another. When we get to Heaven will we stop praying for people still on Earth? In several of his letters St. Paul asks the people to whom he is writing to pray for him. Was he wrong to do so, because he could have prayed to God himself for whatever he needed, or do you recognize the legitimacy of asking others to pray for us? If a Corinthian Christian could ask St. Paul to pray for him, why can't I ask St. Paul to pray for me? It is true that St. Paul is dead in this world's terms, but he lives in Christ, and Christ has conquered death. Some people ask how St. Paul would know of our prayers addressed to him asking him to pray to God for us. The basic answer is that God makes them known to Him. I can go into more scriptural and theological detail if requested. Marty Helgesen
jclark@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (John Clark) (06/21/91)
In article <Jun.16.20.34.35.1991.17313@athos.rutgers.edu> MNHCC@cunyvm.bitnet writes:
+Elizabeth, The Bible teaches us to pray for one another. When we
+get to Heaven will we stop praying for people still on Earth?
This pre-supposes that one is 'immediately' in heaven upon death,
and one is 'sentient' of the wishes of those left on earth. Both
ideas have been debated.
+If a Corinthian Christian could ask St. Paul to pray for him, why
+can't I ask St. Paul to pray for me? It is true that St. Paul is
One gets no impression that the 'Corinthian' is dead in heaven and Paul
alive on earth. One does have the impression that both are alive on
this earth at the time of the request.
--
John Clark
jclark@ucsd.edu
jhpb@garage.att.com (Joseph H Buehler) (06/22/91)
In article <Jun.15.02.13.56.1991.18798@athos.rutgers.edu> ta00est@unccvax.uncc.edu (elizabeth s tallant) writes: > The great argument for this practice is the experience of the Catholic > Church in the matter. Prayers addressed to Saints do get answered, and, > historically speaking, the answers are sometimes of quite a spectacular > nature. I don't think that the part about praying to saints has anything to do with whether or not the prayer is answered. God knows that you are petitioning HIm for something, whether directly or indirectly, and He in His infinite mercy grants your request. You would do better to petition God directly, or ask for the Holy Spirit to pray for you. God doesn't encourage practices contrary to the Bible. People in the early Church were restored to life as a result of petitions addressed to saints. This naturally caused more people to address petitions to these saints. God wouldn't have honored the practice with tremendous miracles if it was contrary to the clear teaching of Scripture.
yshan@screamer.ece.ncsu.edu (youn-sik han) (06/22/91)
Thanks to all subscribers. I am quite new to this news group and learning a lot. I have some questions: What are we going to do or supposed to do in heaven? I certainlty know that we will praise and worship God and the Lamb, as it is described in John's Revelation. But I wonder about prayer. What are all the saints doing now? Should we worship Holy Spirit as God the Father and God the Son? Since I am new to this net group I do not know the religeous backgrounds of you. So, it will be very helpful for me if you explicitly express your stand point of views on Bible or denominatios. Thanks in advance. Han.