mroz@ug.cs.dal.ca (Martin Mroz) (06/11/91)
Disclaimer: Mr. Mroz has given me permission to use this account. Anything
I post may not correspond with the beliefs of Mr. Mroz. Any replies to what
I write may be sent to this account and it will be forwarded to me.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
M. Elliott Siteman
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I am a postulant for ordination in the Anglican Church of Canada, and I am
seeking any and all help that I can from my fellow Christians, be they clergy
or laity.
The source of my inquiry is in the form of a story that I cannot find an
answer to.
The story is:
One fine day you are walking down one of the main streets in your city
and a ragged looking man comes up to me and says, "Hello, (here he uses you own name, for example:) Elliott, my name is Jesus Christ."
The question about this story is:
Would you believe this man? How would you know if it was or was not
Jesus Christ standing in front of you?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This has caused me a great deal of trouble in my thinking about the calling thatI am following. I know that my calling is to the Priesthood but I know that I can never be ordained until I can answer this seemingly simple question in some way, shape, or form.
Anything that any of you can write, say, relate, explain, or what have you wouldbe most helpful to me in my faith journey toward the service of God, Christ, andthe Spirit.
Thank you, M. Elliott Siteman, B.A. (Vind.)
--
Martin Mroz mroz@ug.cs.dal.ca
"Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp,
Or what's a heaven for?" - Robert Brown
-OR- "Cold guy in Canada Caroussing for Cuddles" - No One In Particularmtf39190@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michael T Freeman) (06/12/91)
mroz@ug.cs.dal.ca (Martin Mroz) writes: > One fine day you are walking down one of the main streets in your city >and a ragged looking man comes up to me and says, "Hello, (here he uses you own name, for example:) Elliott, my name is Jesus Christ." >The question about this story is: No, I would not believe him. The Bible says that when Jesus does return he'll do so in power and glory. There will be no doubt to his identity. -- _ =@= Therefore being justified Michael Freeman =@@@@@= by faith, we have peace with University of Illinois =@= God through our Lord Jesus at Urbana/Champaign =@= Christ. Romans 5:1 mtf39190@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu -
djdaneh@pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes) (06/12/91)
In article <Jun.10.23.40.55.1991.1669@athos.rutgers.edu> mroz@ug.cs.dal.ca (Martin Mroz) writes: > One fine day you are walking down one of the main streets in your city >and a ragged looking man comes up to me and says, "Hello, (here he uses you own name, for example:) Elliott, my name is Jesus Christ." > Would you believe this man? How would you know if it was or was not >Jesus Christ standing in front of you? "By their fruits shall ye know them." That's not much to go on, is it? The proper answer, I think, is to hold a state of non-judgement. Accept that you have a man here who may or may not be Jesus Christ. Listen to what he says. If he asks you for something that is not clearly evil or against what the Jesus We All Know And Love taught and commanded, do it for him: "as you have done for each of these little ones," etc.; if he isn't Jesus Christ and he isn't evil, he must be mad and deserving of your help. If he's evil, eventually he'll make an evil request of you and you can go from there. (Note: I'm making a assumption here, which is that anyone who consciously impersonates Jesus with intent to decieve is de facto evil. If you don't agree with this, we can discuss it offline.) The only problem, then, is discerning a madman who sincerely believes he's Jesus from the real thing. Presume he doesn't work any miracles. I'm not sure the distinction needs to be made. For our purposes, we're assuming that everything he's asking of you is in line with what Jesus Himself might ask of you. Well: Jesus was not "sane" in the wisdom of this world. Maintain the spirit of service, and do all things for the sake of _caritas_; the rest will follow. The problem becomes far more complex, of course, when you've got more than one. ("Two men say they're Jesus/one of 'em must be wrong/there's a protest singer singing a protest song.../...the other one's on hunger strike, he's dying by degrees/how come Jesus gets Industrial Disease?" -- Dire Straits) That is the situation in the real world as we know it today. We have several organizations claiming to speak with Jesus' voice, to be the Mystical Body of Christ. I find myself wondering if this is not the real source of your dilemma; are you trying to determine how to react to the particular Church that has spoken to you and called you to the ministry? If so, bubbie, you're on your own. I'm still struggling with the thousand Voices of God. He asks "How does it feel to be such a freak?" And he laughs as he hands you a bone, Yes, something is happening here And you don't know what it is Do you, Mr. Jones? -- Bob Dylan The Roach
mib@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell) (06/14/91)
In article <Jun.11.22.45.45.1991.24011@athos.rutgers.edu> mtf39190@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michael T Freeman) writes:
No, I would not believe him. The Bible says that when Jesus does
return he'll do so in power and glory. There will be no doubt to
his identity.
But this just begs the question. The Old Testament prophets said the
Messiah would come in power and glory the first time. I think they
were right, and I think Jesus did demonstrate power and glory. Let's
not confuse our images of power and glory with God's. If "all the
fulness of God" resided in Jesus of Nazareth, surely that includes
power and glory as well.
-mibemery@tc.fluke.COM (John Emery) (06/14/91)
In article <Jun.10.23.40.55.1991.1669@athos.rutgers.edu> mroz@ug.cs.dal.ca (Martin Mroz) writes: >Disclaimer: Mr. Mroz has given me permission to use this account. Anything >I post may not correspond with the beliefs of Mr. Mroz. Any replies to what >I write may be sent to this account and it will be forwarded to me. > Thank you for your time and consideration. > M. Elliott Siteman M. Elliot, May God bless you and fulfill His purpose for you! > ------------------------------------------------------------------- >I am a postulant for ordination in the Anglican Church of Canada, and I am >seeking any and all help that I can from my fellow Christians, be they clergy >or laity. > >The source of my inquiry is in the form of a story that I cannot find an >answer to. > >The story is: > > One fine day you are walking down one of the main streets in your city >and a ragged looking man comes up to me and says, "Hello, (here he uses you own name, for example:) Elliott, my name is Jesus Christ." > > >The question about this story is: > > Would you believe this man? How would you know if it was or was not >Jesus Christ standing in front of you? Ask him to show you the nail marks in his hands and the wound in his side (John 20:27). Did he come in the clouds of heaven (Acts 1:11)? Does his face shine like the sun in all its brillance? Are his eyes like blazing fire? Are his feet like bronze glowing in a furnace? Is his voice like the sound of many waters? (Revelation 1:14-15)? Do you recognize his voice? (John 10:27). > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >This has caused me a great deal of trouble in my thinking about the calling >that I am following. I know that my calling is to the Priesthood but I know >that I can never be ordained until I can answer this seemingly simple >question in some way, shape, or form. >Anything that any of you can write, say, relate, explain, or what have you >would be most helpful to me in my faith journey toward the service of God, >Christ, andt he Spirit. > >Thank you, M. Elliott Siteman, B.A. (Vind.) M. Elliot, what I perceive you really want is to prove to yourself that you are devoted enough to enter the ministry. In the gospels, Peter does some things that at first seem noble. First of Jesus wants to wash his feet, but Peter says "No, Lord, you shall never wash my feet" (John 13:8). And when Jesus predicted that Peter would deny him, Peter said "Even if all fall away on account of you, I never will" (Matthew 26:33). And the Scripture goes on to say: But Peter declared, "Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you." And all the other disciples said the same. (verse 35) Yet they all failed. The key is that Peter had faith in his ability and believed himself to be self-sufficient in having what it takes to follow Jesus. But those who have faith in themselves will fail because it is written: "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.." (Romans 3:23). But those whose have faith in Jesus will be victorious: "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" (Galatians 2:20-21) Paul explains it this way: "I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning in the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" (Galatians 3:2-3) So what does God want? He wants you to wholeheartedly follow Him. But you can't do it, Only Jesus can do it through you. He wants you to love Him with all your heart, but you can't do it. However, as it is written "God has poured out His love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us" (Romans 5:5). He wants your life to be acceptable to Him, however you can't do it. But "having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand." (Romans 5:1-2). You can't fulfill God's plan for you life. The only way it can happen is by Jesus living in your heart and doing it for you. As it is written: "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." (Philippians 4:13). So instead of work, surrender to Him and believe that He will do it. Scripture confirms this over and over. Jesus makes Himself known to those who are His (John 10). If you are afraid of not recognizing Him, know that He stands at the door and knocks and says that if anyone opens the door, He will come into him and sup with him (Revelation 3:20). God bless you M. Elliot in your quest of service, John Emery emery@tc.fluke.COM
mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (06/14/91)
In article <Jun.11.22.45.45.1991.24011@athos.rutgers.edu> mtf39190@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michael T Freeman) writes: >mroz@ug.cs.dal.ca (Martin Mroz) writes: > > >> One fine day you are walking down one of the main streets in your city >>and a ragged looking man comes up to me and says, "Hello, (here he uses you own name, for example:) Elliott, my name is Jesus Christ." > > >>The question about this story is: > No, I would not believe him. The Bible says that when Jesus does >return he'll do so in power and glory. There will be no doubt to his identity. Hehehehe... It nears the point of hilarity to read this statement and contrast it with the statement made by the Jews during Jesus' time (made by Jews today, in fact). Don't you think you're putting G-d into a box? :-) James mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
mreisch@euler.unm.edu (Mique Reisch) (06/15/91)
mroz@ug.cs.dal.ca (Martin Mroz) writes: > One fine day you are walking down one of the main streets in your city >and a ragged looking man comes up to me and says, "Hello, (here he uses you own name, for example:) Elliott, my name is Jesus Christ." On 12 Jun 91 02:45:46 GMT, mtf39190@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michael T Freeman) said: Michael> The Bible says that when Jesus does return he'll do so in Michael> power and glory. There will be no doubt to his identity. Just an observation or two about the above... If I recall correctly the jews were quite sure that the Messiah would come in power and glory and liberate them. The people of Jesus's time for the most part seem to have felt this meant overthrowing the Romans. Christians today take the old testament prophecies in a much different light. If so many (especially the so called scholars of the day) were wrong what makes you so certain. weather>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> < Hello Mique Reisch < < my friend mreisch@euler.unm.edu < < are you visible today? MREISCH@UNMB < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>government
daly@uunet.uu.net (Kathy Daly) (06/22/91)
I haven't posted for a while, but this one intrigues me. In article <Jun.10.23.40.55.1991.1669@athos.rutgers.edu> mroz@ug.cs.dal.ca (Elliott Siteman using the account of Martin Mroz) writes: > >The source of my inquiry is in the form of a story that I cannot find an >answer to. >The story is: > . . . >The question about this story is: > Would you believe this man? How would you know if it was or was not >Jesus Christ standing in front of you? A story-question without an answer becomes a koan, one of those sayings used in Zen meditation. Look beyond the facts of the case. The question of whether or not that man is the returning King is a distraction, much like arguing kosher law or sabbath-keeping. Ask yourself what matters: Would you treat a man differently because of his identity? Are we not to see the face of God in the least of his creatures? If Jesus lives in the heart of one who has been born again, am I not in the presence of God by interacting with such a person? Even these questions should be taken beyond the plane of "true/false" facts and into the realm of the metaphysical. This isn't mere symbolism; a tramp is not a stand-in for Christ, a leper is not representing Christ. We should not treat these people as if they were not there and Jesus were in their place. We should treat them as *part* of us, part of Christ. Humanity becomes more than a creation of God, but the way God is manifested in our world. And so, if I see a bum on the street, I can assume he is Jesus even before he says so. Although, I admit, I am usually distracted by the outer coating God uses as a disguise most of the time. -- Kathy E.F.Daly ----- "A bad .signature is better than no .signature at all" (technically) Camex,Inc. pays me, but I work for DuPont Design Technologies . . and neither is liable nor responsible for anything I say or do here. ## daly%ddtisvr@uunet.uu.net ## daly@ddtisvr.ddtg.com ## (408)970-4263 ##
goguenm@brahms.udel.edu (Matthew L Goguen) (06/23/91)
Do not sheep know the voice of their sheperd? When our master returns we will know when he speaks to us. Just as you know your mother's voice you will recognize HIS. ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Matthew L. Goguen // Choose this day whom ye // // ELEG(SOPH) // will serve as for me and // // goguenm@chopin.udel.edu // my house we will serve // // goguenm@brahms.udel.edu // the LORD. Joshua 24:15 // //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////