janet@cs.arizona.edu (Janet Kerr) (06/17/91)
I have been a "born-again" Christain for 10 years, I have a BA in Biblical Studies from an AG Bible College, I have served in the Church in various capacities. For 10 years I sincerely believed in all the appropriate doctrine to match the above. I say all this only for background information to whoever may be interested. Now, for some reason, I seem to be sort of "standing back and observing it all"...and wondering. I wonder who has a corner on the "truth" and how can they be so sure, except by their own understanding. I read the articles in this and the other "religious" groups and am puzzled by some of the entries....so seem so blastphemous, others so sincere, but all (that I have read) so sure of themselves. I feel a genuine need to sit back awhile, get away from it all (zealous well-meaning Christians) and try to get things in perspective. I don't want to argue with anyone issuing volumes of Biblical quotes, I've heard most of it. I just wonder if, on a human level, flesh and bone, if there are other sincere Christians who experience the same thing, who just want to do what is right but are weary of theological haggling. Janet [Yes. Including the moderator. I really wonder at times whether this group is a good thing. There seems to be no way for Christians of different perspectives to use the same forum without having doctrinal disagreements dominate. Personally I would prefer that when someone makes a non-doctrinal posting, doctrinal responses should not be allowed. While I have serious problems with the visions at Medjugorge, I would prefer to allow people to talk about them without having every posting result in a debate over Mariology. However in general our readers have not supported a rule of this type. It may be that soc.religion.christian.XXX, as in the proposal for soc.religion.christian.catholic, is the only solution (though having a Catholic group defined as including Episcopaleans may result in as many problems as it solves). There are some mailing lists that are more controlled, including at least a general Christian one, and lists for both Seventh-Day Adventists and Catholics (using the broad definition that includes Episcopaleans). Certainly I've come to know a lot more about other Christian traditions through participating in this group, and I'm glad for that. --clh]
jclark@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (John Clark) (06/21/91)
In article <Jun.16.20.31.43.1991.17253@athos.rutgers.edu> janet@cs.arizona.edu (Janet Kerr) writes: +by some of the entries....so seem so blastphemous, others so sincere, +but all (that I have read) so sure of themselves. Depends on your perpective, what is blastphemous. The moderator writes: + .... to counter the all to frequent dogma fights .... +that soc.religion.christian.XXX, as in the proposal for +soc.religion.christian.catholic, is the only solution (though having a How about a {soc,talk,alt}.religion.christian.testemonial. Testemonial being something which is one's beliefs/experience not necessarily stating or defending a doctrinal position. -- John Clark jclark@ucsd.edu [Testimonies are of course not the only issue. There are a number of issues in trying to practice Christianity. --clh]
daly@strawber.princeton.edu (John Daly) (06/21/91)
In article <Jun.16.20.31.43.1991.17253@athos.rutgers.edu>, janet@cs.arizona.edu (Janet Kerr) writes: |> Now, for some reason, I seem to be sort of "standing back and observing |> it all"...and wondering. I wonder who has a corner on the "truth" and |> how can they be so sure, except by their own understanding. I read |> the articles in this and the other "religious" groups and am puzzled |> by some of the entries....so seem so blastphemous, others so sincere, |> but all (that I have read) so sure of themselves. |> |> I feel a genuine need to sit back awhile, get away from it all (zealous |> well-meaning Christians) and try to get things in perspective. I don't |> want to argue with anyone issuing volumes of Biblical quotes, I've heard |> most of it. I just wonder if, on a human level, flesh and bone, if |> there are other sincere Christians who experience the same thing, who |> just want to do what is right but are weary of theological haggling. During the Gulf War, I heard a LOT of people's opinions. Curiously, most of them seemed quite sure that they knew better than Bush how to resolve the crisis. Even more curious, most of them disagreed. I felt a bit left out, because I did not know the right answer. I think these sentiments apply equally well to the doctrine arguments you mention. I might as well add that I frequently don't have any idea who is right in theological arguments either. This does not concern me all that greatly though, because I believe God is sufficiently in control of his creation that these arguments do not threaten him. Actually, I imagine he finds most of them pretty amusing. I have noticed, with myself as much as anyone, that there is a tendency to fall back on doctrine as a sort of last restort. I believe this to be contrary to the lessons of Christian humility. We normally think of humility as how we react to things going right, but I think Christian humility has more to do with how we react to things going hopelessly wrong. At those times we should not be relying on our doctine or our own devices, but on God. The question is a simple one. Do I trust God enough to hand difficulties and uncertainties over to Him, even when every instinct makes me try to save myself? If this doesn't seem like a poignant question, consider how difficult it would be to convince a drowning man that he would be more easily saved if he would just stop thrashing about. That is when faith is truly tested. Remember that the one thing that all Christians have in common is the thing that makes them distinct from members of every other religion. Chrisitianity is the only world religion which requires a Saviour for redemption. Everyone else can save themselves through their own acts. Christians are all saved through Christ. They must ASK to be redeemed. This is an important distinction, because it means a Christian MUST be "humiliated" to be saved. Not only is this AN important distinction, I believe that this is the ONLY important distinction, which all saved Christians share. No doctrine here, just the definition of Christian. God Bless.
lhccjeh@lure.latrobe.edu.au (James Hale) (06/22/91)
In article <Jun.16.20.31.43.1991.17253@athos.rutgers.edu>, janet@cs.arizona.edu (Janet Kerr) writes: > I have been a "born-again" Christain for 10 years, I have a BA in > Biblical Studies from an AG Bible College, I have served in the > Church in various capacities. For 10 years I sincerely believed > in all the appropriate doctrine to match the above. I say all this > only for background information to whoever may be interested. > >Now, for some reason, I seem to be sort of "standing back and observing >it all"...and wondering. I wonder who has a corner on the "truth" and >how can they be so sure, except by their own understanding. I read >the articles in this and the other "religious" groups and am puzzled >by some of the entries....so seem so blastphemous, others so sincere, >but all (that I have read) so sure of themselves. Let it go Janet, it is what you believe and practice that is so much more important and true to you. Don't let words or theology stop you. God didn't make theology, we did. What you are describing is not unique. I dare say we all have experienced it to varying degrees and will continue to do so. There is a lot of fear, guilt and anger in all of us that needs letting go of. Unfortunately its pretty clever at hiding and disguising itself so that we think we are free of it for a while, then...whammo, something we think will threaten to bring it to the light and it will fight. But light will win for darkness cannot exist in light. Keep your faith in God and do His WIll [yes I know it easy to say, but we have to keep at it. The alternative seems such a waste.] >I feel a genuine need to sit back awhile, get away from it all (zealous >well-meaning Christians) and try to get things in perspective. I don't >want to argue with anyone issuing volumes of Biblical quotes, I've heard >most of it. I just wonder if, on a human level, flesh and bone, if >there are other sincere Christians who experience the same thing, who >just want to do what is right but are weary of theological haggling. I try [its not always easy] to see any action by another as either an expression of love or a call for love. It really helps. Perhaps by telling my experience here might also help. I am a student of A Couse in Miracles. I consider myself Christian, yet this would be hotly contested by many members of this news group. I read and post to this group because I feel that I have something to say that helps, not just for those who read it but also for myself. I learn from what I read, not by what's in it but by being aware of my reactions to it. If I find something offensive I have to realise that its not what I read in and of itself that is offensive it is something in me. If I am angry it is something in me. I am talking here at the "flesh and bones" level, not the spiritual one. (Freud had a lot of things right even though he would not accept a spiritual side to things. The mechanics of how this mind, here on this earth, wants to work is all there [pretty much] in his theories.) I can make no judgement on other posters or their motives or authority. I don't know their role in God's plan nor what the Holy Spirit has guided them to do. I can only seek to fulfill my role and uncover the barriers in me that get in its way. I have been guided to read this group. I faced my fear and anger when I thought I could be attacked, and hey I am still here. Now I am simply trying to understand my feelings and catch them when the get in the way of doing His Will. None of us is perfect [we wouldn't be here if we were says the Course] so at the very least we are being offered a chance to be tolerant and love our brothers regardless of what they may be saying. We can't change them [only they can do that] but we can change how we perceive them. > >[Yes. Including the moderator. I really wonder at times whether this >group is a good thing. [rest deleted] Yes it is. _____________________________________________________________________________ James Hale Lincoln School of Health Sciences Computing Unit La Trobe University,Bundoora, AUSTRALIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- My sinless brother is my guide to peace. | Lesson 351 My sinful brother is my guide to pain. | Workbook P470 And which I choose to see I will behold. | _____________________________________________________________________________
goguenm@brahms.udel.edu (Matthew L Goguen) (06/23/91)
No one person except Christ was perfect. We all have to watch our selves and pray for guidance before proceeding. Paul wrote about meat and strong and weak christians. Maybe some of the little things or big things in our respective doctrines don't really matter, maybe they do. My backround has been Independant Baptist from New England. I have started working with a group called IVCF at good old U. of D.. This has helped me to find my excess baggage and trim it off. This net also helped as well. There are issues to die for but there are others that really don't matter one little bit. Predestination could be an example of something better let lie. Murder and Robbery is another to possibley die for. The one I can prove, the other is just an annoying brain teaser for Satan's seeds of doubt. I think all believers agree that there is one supream God to worship. What we need to do now is to test our respective scripture and see if we are following the spirit or the letter or even worse than the letter, a false prophet/teacher/leader. Judge each other by our works, for we cannot see the heart accuratly. We can say if an action was right or wrong but we cannot judge its motives. Central power scares me due to the fact that humans are corrupt creations of God. (By corrupt I mean we are not perfect.) I have watched too many once "great" leaders lead thousands to hell. I am weary and I need rest as well there fore I will give it to God now and let you digest these words. May God grant you wisdom and peace. Wisdom to find the Gold and burn the hay, and peace to know who he is and what he is about. Matthew. ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Matthew L. Goguen // Choose this day whom ye // // ELEG(SOPH) // will serve as for me and // // goguenm@chopin.udel.edu // my house we will serve // // goguenm@brahms.udel.edu // the LORD. Joshua 24:15 // ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// [As you may recall, we just had a conversation about IVCF, among other groups. I have some information to add, which is relevant to the previous conversation, although not directly to this one. As it happens, last Tues. the Presbytery of New Brunswick (to which I am a commissioner) was asked to receive into membership a Presbyterian pastor who is acting as a leader for the IVCF graduate group at Princeton. I collared him after the meeting and asked him about the Intervarsity stand on the authority of scripture. He told me that although many people claim that Intervarsity is fundamentalist, their actual policy on Scripture is essentially the same as the Presbyterian Church (USA). They require officers to believe that the Bible is unique and authoritative, but they specifically avoided using the word inerrant because it was too narrow. --clh]
carroll@cs.washington.edu (Jeff Carroll) (06/23/91)
In article <Jun.21.04.45.14.1991.16481@athos.rutgers.edu> daly@strawber.princeton.edu (John Daly) writes: >In article <Jun.16.20.31.43.1991.17253@athos.rutgers.edu>, janet@cs.arizona.edu (Janet Kerr) writes: >|> >|> I feel a genuine need to sit back awhile, get away from it all (zealous >|> well-meaning Christians) and try to get things in perspective. I don't >|> want to argue with anyone issuing volumes of Biblical quotes, I've heard >|> most of it. I just wonder if, on a human level, flesh and bone, if >|> there are other sincere Christians who experience the same thing, who >|> just want to do what is right but are weary of theological haggling. I have not read this group for some months for more or less this reason. I wince (probably visibly) every time I see someone dashing into s.r.c with Bible and sword both unholstered, ready to consign the doctrinally nonconforming to everlasting damnation. >I think these sentiments apply equally well to the doctrine arguments you >mention. I might as well add that I frequently don't have any idea who is >right in theological arguments either. This does not concern me all that >greatly though, because I believe God is sufficiently in control of his >creation that these arguments do not threaten him. Actually, I imagine >he finds most of them pretty amusing. Theology, as "words about God", will always be inadequate to the task of describing the One Who Is What He Is. I think it's important to remember that theology exists for the purpose of explaining God to mankind, and that man does not exist for the purpose of having the correct understanding of theology. Correct theology, if there is such a thing, is not correct by virtue of the authority that teaches it, but rather because it happens to be accurately descriptive of the reality of God. Because God transcends all the formal systems within which we live, any attempt at a systematic description of God will be incomplete; the best we can hope for, to use a loose analogy, is an optimal estimate of the projection of God into the subspace accessible to us. It is plausible to me that two radically different theologies could be equally complete and accurate descriptions of God. In recent months I have been exposed to a number of Christians who feel compelled to recruit others into a certain group to which they belong in order to validate the spiritual experiences they themselves have had in and through that group. We often do this with doctrine - it's easier for us to believe in something that is acknowledged to have some sort of "objective" validity in the eyes of society at large than to trust in an intangible and subjective understanding. -- Jeff Carroll carroll@ssc-vax.boeing.com