[soc.religion.christian] Standing back to observe

janet@cs.arizona.edu (Janet Kerr) (06/17/91)

I have been a "born-again" Christain for 10 years, I have a BA in
Biblical Studies from an AG Bible College, I have served in the 
Church in various capacities.  For 10 years I sincerely believed
in all the appropriate doctrine to match the above.  I say all this
only for background information to whoever may be interested.

Now, for some reason, I seem to be sort of "standing back and observing
it all"...and wondering.  I wonder who has a corner on the "truth" and
how can they be so sure, except by their own understanding.  I read
the articles in this and the other "religious" groups and am puzzled
by some of the entries....so seem so blastphemous, others so sincere,
but all (that I have read) so sure of themselves.  

I feel a genuine need to sit back awhile, get away from it all (zealous
well-meaning Christians) and try to get things in perspective.  I don't
want to argue with anyone issuing volumes of Biblical quotes, I've heard
most of it.  I just wonder if, on a human level, flesh and bone, if
there are other sincere Christians who experience the same thing, who
just want to do what is right but are weary of theological haggling.

Janet

[Yes.  Including the moderator.  I really wonder at times whether this
group is a good thing.  There seems to be no way for Christians of
different perspectives to use the same forum without having doctrinal
disagreements dominate.  Personally I would prefer that when someone
makes a non-doctrinal posting, doctrinal responses should not be
allowed.  While I have serious problems with the visions at
Medjugorge, I would prefer to allow people to talk about them without
having every posting result in a debate over Mariology.  However in
general our readers have not supported a rule of this type.  It may be
that soc.religion.christian.XXX, as in the proposal for
soc.religion.christian.catholic, is the only solution (though having a
Catholic group defined as including Episcopaleans may result in as
many problems as it solves).  There are some mailing lists that are
more controlled, including at least a general Christian one, and lists
for both Seventh-Day Adventists and Catholics (using the broad
definition that includes Episcopaleans).  Certainly I've come to know
a lot more about other Christian traditions through participating in
this group, and I'm glad for that.  --clh]

jclark@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (John Clark) (06/21/91)

In article <Jun.16.20.31.43.1991.17253@athos.rutgers.edu> janet@cs.arizona.edu (Janet Kerr) writes:
+by some of the entries....so seem so blastphemous, others so sincere,
+but all (that I have read) so sure of themselves.  

Depends on your perpective, what is blastphemous.

The moderator writes:
+ .... to counter the all to frequent dogma fights ....
+that soc.religion.christian.XXX, as in the proposal for
+soc.religion.christian.catholic, is the only solution (though having a

How about a {soc,talk,alt}.religion.christian.testemonial.
Testemonial being something which is one's beliefs/experience not
necessarily stating or defending a doctrinal position.
-- 

John Clark
jclark@ucsd.edu

[Testimonies are of course not the only issue.  There are a number
of issues in trying to practice Christianity.  --clh]

daly@strawber.princeton.edu (John Daly) (06/21/91)

In article <Jun.16.20.31.43.1991.17253@athos.rutgers.edu>, janet@cs.arizona.edu (Janet Kerr) writes:
|> Now, for some reason, I seem to be sort of "standing back and observing
|> it all"...and wondering.  I wonder who has a corner on the "truth" and
|> how can they be so sure, except by their own understanding.  I read
|> the articles in this and the other "religious" groups and am puzzled
|> by some of the entries....so seem so blastphemous, others so sincere,
|> but all (that I have read) so sure of themselves.  
|> 
|> I feel a genuine need to sit back awhile, get away from it all (zealous
|> well-meaning Christians) and try to get things in perspective.  I don't
|> want to argue with anyone issuing volumes of Biblical quotes, I've heard
|> most of it.  I just wonder if, on a human level, flesh and bone, if
|> there are other sincere Christians who experience the same thing, who
|> just want to do what is right but are weary of theological haggling.

During the Gulf War, I heard a LOT of people's opinions.  Curiously, most
of them seemed quite sure that they knew better than Bush how to resolve
the crisis.  Even more curious, most of them disagreed.  I felt a bit left
out, because I did not know the right answer.

I think these sentiments apply equally well to the doctrine arguments you
mention.  I might as well add that I frequently don't have any idea who is
right in theological arguments either.  This does not concern me all that
greatly though, because I believe God is sufficiently in control of his
creation that these arguments do not threaten him.  Actually, I imagine
he finds most of them pretty amusing.

I have noticed, with myself as much as anyone, that there is a tendency
to fall back on doctrine as a sort of last restort.  I believe this to
be contrary to the lessons of Christian humility.  We normally think of
humility as how we react to things going right, but I think Christian
humility has more to do with how we react to things going hopelessly
wrong.  At those times we should not be relying on our doctine or our
own devices, but on God.  The question is a simple one.  Do I trust God
enough to hand difficulties and uncertainties over to Him, even when
every instinct makes me try to save myself?  If this doesn't seem like
a poignant question, consider how difficult it would be to convince a
drowning man that he would be more easily saved if he would just stop
thrashing about.  That is when faith is truly tested.

Remember that the one thing that all Christians have in common is the
thing that makes them distinct from members of every other religion. 
Chrisitianity is the only world religion which requires a Saviour for
redemption.  Everyone else can save themselves through their own acts.
Christians are all saved through Christ.  They must ASK to be redeemed.
This is an important distinction, because it means a Christian MUST be
"humiliated" to be saved.  Not only is this AN important distinction,
I believe that this is the ONLY important distinction, which all saved
Christians share.  No doctrine here, just the definition of Christian.

God Bless.

lhccjeh@lure.latrobe.edu.au (James Hale) (06/22/91)

In article <Jun.16.20.31.43.1991.17253@athos.rutgers.edu>, 
	janet@cs.arizona.edu (Janet Kerr) writes:
> I have been a "born-again" Christain for 10 years, I have a BA in
> Biblical Studies from an AG Bible College, I have served in the 
> Church in various capacities.  For 10 years I sincerely believed
> in all the appropriate doctrine to match the above.  I say all this
> only for background information to whoever may be interested.
> 
>Now, for some reason, I seem to be sort of "standing back and observing
>it all"...and wondering.  I wonder who has a corner on the "truth" and
>how can they be so sure, except by their own understanding.  I read 
>the articles in this and the other "religious" groups and am puzzled 
>by some of the entries....so seem so blastphemous, others so sincere, 
>but all (that I have read) so sure of themselves.

Let it go Janet, it is what you believe and practice that is so much more
important and true to you. Don't let words or theology stop you. God
didn't make theology, we did. What you are describing is not unique. I
dare say we all have experienced it to varying degrees and will continue to
do so. There is a lot of fear, guilt and anger in all of us that needs letting 
go of. Unfortunately its pretty clever at hiding and disguising itself so that 
we think we are free of it for a while, then...whammo, something we think
will threaten to bring it to the light and it will fight. But light will win 
for darkness cannot exist in light. Keep your faith in God and do His WIll [yes
I know it easy to say, but we have to keep at it. The alternative seems such
a waste.]

>I feel a genuine need to sit back awhile, get away from it all (zealous
>well-meaning Christians) and try to get things in perspective.  I don't
>want to argue with anyone issuing volumes of Biblical quotes, I've heard
>most of it.  I just wonder if, on a human level, flesh and bone, if 
>there are other sincere Christians who experience the same thing, who 
>just want to do what is right but are weary of theological haggling. 

I try [its not always easy] to see any action by another as either an 
expression of love or a call for love. It really helps. Perhaps by telling my 
experience here might also help. I am a student of A Couse in Miracles. I 
consider myself Christian, yet this would be hotly contested by many members of
this news group. I read and post to this group because I feel that I have
something to say that helps, not just for those who read it but also for
myself. I learn from what I read, not by what's in it but by being aware of
my reactions to it. If I find something offensive I have to realise that its
not what I read in and of itself that is offensive it is something in me. If I
am angry it is something in me. I am talking here at the "flesh and bones"
level, not the spiritual one. (Freud had a lot of things right even though he
would not accept a spiritual side to things. The mechanics of how this mind,
here on this earth, wants to work is all there [pretty much] in his theories.)
I can make no judgement on other posters or their motives or authority. I
don't know their role in God's plan nor what the Holy Spirit has guided
them to do. I can only seek to fulfill my role and uncover the barriers in
me that get in its way. I have been guided to read this group. I faced my
fear and anger when I thought I could be attacked, and hey I am still here. 
Now I am simply trying to understand my feelings and catch them when the get 
in the way of doing His Will. 
None of us is perfect [we wouldn't be here if we were says the Course] 
so at the very least we are being offered a chance to be tolerant and
love our brothers regardless of what they may be saying. We can't change
them [only they can do that] but we can change how we perceive them. 
>
>[Yes.  Including the moderator.  I really wonder at times whether this
>group is a good thing.  [rest deleted]

Yes it is.
_____________________________________________________________________________
James Hale     			Lincoln School of Health Sciences
Computing Unit			La Trobe University,Bundoora, AUSTRALIA
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
My sinless brother is my guide to peace.		|	Lesson 351
My sinful brother is my guide to pain.			|	Workbook P470
And which I choose to see I will behold.		|
_____________________________________________________________________________

goguenm@brahms.udel.edu (Matthew L Goguen) (06/23/91)

  No one person except Christ was perfect.  We all have to watch our selves
and pray for guidance before proceeding.  Paul wrote about meat and strong
and weak christians. Maybe some of the little things or big things in our
respective doctrines don't really matter, maybe they do.  My backround
has been Independant Baptist from New England.  I have started working with
a group called IVCF at good old U. of D.. This has helped me to find my excess
baggage and trim it off. This net also helped as well.  There are issues to 
die for but there are others that really don't matter one little bit. 
Predestination could be an example of something better let lie. Murder and
Robbery is another to possibley die for. The one I can prove, the other
is just an annoying brain teaser for Satan's seeds of doubt. 
  I think all believers agree that there is one supream God to worship. What 
we need to do now is to test our respective scripture and see if we are 
following the spirit or the letter or even worse than the letter, a false
prophet/teacher/leader.  Judge each other by our works, for we cannot see the
heart accuratly. We can say if an action was right or wrong but we cannot judge
its motives.  
  Central power scares me due to the fact that humans are corrupt creations of 
God. (By corrupt I mean we are not perfect.) I have watched too many once
"great" leaders lead thousands to hell.  I am weary and I need rest as well
there fore I will give it to God now and let you digest these words.
May God grant you wisdom and peace. Wisdom to find the Gold and burn the 
hay, and peace to know who he is and what he is about.
Matthew.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
//  Matthew L. Goguen       // Choose this day whom ye  //
//  ELEG(SOPH)              // will serve as for me and //
//  goguenm@chopin.udel.edu // my house we will serve   //
//  goguenm@brahms.udel.edu // the LORD. Joshua 24:15   //
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

[As you may recall, we just had a conversation about IVCF, among other
groups.  I have some information to add, which is relevant to the
previous conversation, although not directly to this one.  As it
happens, last Tues. the Presbytery of New Brunswick (to which I am a
commissioner) was asked to receive into membership a Presbyterian
pastor who is acting as a leader for the IVCF graduate group at
Princeton.  I collared him after the meeting and asked him about the
Intervarsity stand on the authority of scripture.  He told me that
although many people claim that Intervarsity is fundamentalist, their
actual policy on Scripture is essentially the same as the Presbyterian
Church (USA).  They require officers to believe that the Bible is
unique and authoritative, but they specifically avoided using the word
inerrant because it was too narrow.  --clh]

carroll@cs.washington.edu (Jeff Carroll) (06/23/91)

In article <Jun.21.04.45.14.1991.16481@athos.rutgers.edu> daly@strawber.princeton.edu (John Daly) writes:
>In article <Jun.16.20.31.43.1991.17253@athos.rutgers.edu>, janet@cs.arizona.edu (Janet Kerr) writes:
>|> 
>|> I feel a genuine need to sit back awhile, get away from it all (zealous
>|> well-meaning Christians) and try to get things in perspective.  I don't
>|> want to argue with anyone issuing volumes of Biblical quotes, I've heard
>|> most of it.  I just wonder if, on a human level, flesh and bone, if
>|> there are other sincere Christians who experience the same thing, who
>|> just want to do what is right but are weary of theological haggling.

	I have not read this group for some months for more or less this
reason. I wince (probably visibly) every time I see someone dashing into
s.r.c with Bible and sword both unholstered, ready to consign the 
doctrinally nonconforming to everlasting damnation.

>I think these sentiments apply equally well to the doctrine arguments you
>mention.  I might as well add that I frequently don't have any idea who is
>right in theological arguments either.  This does not concern me all that
>greatly though, because I believe God is sufficiently in control of his
>creation that these arguments do not threaten him.  Actually, I imagine
>he finds most of them pretty amusing.

	Theology, as "words about God", will always be inadequate to
the task of describing the One Who Is What He Is. I think it's important
to remember that theology exists for the purpose of explaining God to
mankind, and that man does not exist for the purpose of having the
correct understanding of theology.

	Correct theology, if there is such a thing, is not correct by
virtue of the authority that teaches it, but rather because it happens
to be accurately descriptive of the reality of God. Because God
transcends all the formal systems within which we live, any attempt at
a systematic description of God will be incomplete; the best we can hope
for, to use a loose analogy, is an optimal estimate of the projection
of God into the subspace accessible to us. It is plausible to me that
two radically different theologies could be equally complete and accurate
descriptions of God.

In recent months I have been exposed to a number of Christians who feel
compelled to recruit others into a certain group to which they belong
in order to validate the spiritual experiences they themselves have had
in and through that group. We often do this with doctrine - it's easier
for us to believe in something that is acknowledged to have some sort
of "objective" validity in the eyes of society at large than to trust
in an intangible and subjective understanding.




-- 
Jeff Carroll		carroll@ssc-vax.boeing.com