benning@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com (06/15/91)
On June 22, The City of CLEVELAND will be celebrating the third annual
"LESBIAN-GAY PRIDE DAY."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Many of the citizens of this fine city who have chosen a "alternate" Life
style will take to the streets in 'pride', proclaiming their victory over
traditional (male/female) relationships.
What is the opinion of the S.R.C. folks what the local Christian community
should do (If Anything) in response to this city function?
Please, LET'S NOT HAVE a discussion on the MERIT or IMMORALITY of
the gay-les community. We have had that discusion!
But were this your city, what would your body of Christ do?
-Would you follow the parade with your own "traditional relationship" rally?
-Would you talk to the participants about what is wrong with the selection
they made for their sexual "orientation" according to G-ds word?
-Perhaps you would take the day off to go to the country with the family?
-Have a city wide 24 hour prayer vigil on June 22?
-Maybe have a group of brothers and sisters join the party and tell everyone
how much "we" support their cause.
- OR WHAT...
* Send your suggestions to this newsgroup OR e-mail me? PLEASE, NO FLAMES!!
* I am seriously asking for your opinions as Followers of Messiah Jesus.
Bruce Benning __________ benning@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com
-------------Religion may inform and reform-------------
----------but only Messiah Jesus can Transform----------
[This looks like a question addressed to those Christians who believe
homosexuality is wrong. It's certainly fair to ask how one should
respond to public demonstrations of principles you are opposed to.
However while like you I would not like to see the discussion on
homosexaulity renewed, I think it is fair game for those who support
gay rights to comment on the role that public demonstrations play for
them. It's my hope that the intent is not to proclaim victory over
conventional relationships, but rather over those who portray such
relationships as the only legitimate alternative. I'm going to keep
this discussion fairly focused, and brief. --clh]ipoulin@uavax0.ccit.arizona.edu (06/17/91)
In article <Jun.15.02.08.07.1991.18651@athos.rutgers.edu>, benning@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com writes: > On June 22, The City of CLEVELAND will be celebrating the third annual > "LESBIAN-GAY PRIDE DAY." > ... What is the opinion of the S.R.C. folks what the local Christian > community should do (If Anything) in response to this city function? What I would start with is a reflection of what Jesus Christ would have done. Would He have gotten out there and condemded the whole group to Hell? No.... Would He have completely ignored them? No.... He would have offered His love, as we should, His forgiveness, as we should, and His support, as we should.
johnthomas@oavax.csuchico.edu (06/17/91)
I would start with prayer, perhaps including "give me the desires of
my heart" (this is certainly according to His will). By the way, I will
pray also for your solution.
Also, I have found it profitable to "turn on the light" vs. "chase out
the darkness". You can be kept quite busy running in circles chasing
darkness, keep your eyes on the Lord. I have no idea what God would have
you to do exactly, but I'm sure you will find out, if you ask Him.
God bless you!
JTdyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) (06/17/91)
In article <Jun.15.02.08.07.1991.18651@athos.rutgers.edu> benning@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com writes: >Many of the citizens of this fine city who have chosen a "alternate" Life >style will take to the streets in 'pride', proclaiming their victory over >traditional (male/female) relationships. ]And clh sayeth: ]I think it is fair game for those who support gay rights to comment on ]the role that public demonstrations play for them. It's my hope that ]the intent is not to proclaim victory over conventional relationships, ]but rather over those who portray such relationships as the only ]legitimate alternative. Well, thanks for the excessively diplomatic correction. I would not guess that anyone attending a gay pride march would describe themselves as "proclaiming their victory over traditional (male/female) relationships", or at least they wouldn't say that without breaking out into fits of laughter. And I still want to know what an "alternate lifestyle" is. My life is too mundane as it is. Lesbian and Gay Pride marches have many purposes. One is to erase, if only for a day, the invisibility which too many gay people impose or have imposed upon themselves. In Boston last weekend, we had more than 90,000 people from throughout New England, marching for several miles and then rallying on the Boston Common. The gay "rainbow" flag flew on the plaza of City Hall alongside the official flags of the city and the Commonwealth. The mayor of the city and the governor of Massachusetts proclaimed "Lesbian and Gay Pride Week". People of all ages, races, parents, their children, healthy and ill, march along asserting their visibility, their solidarity in diversity, and their dignity. Some floats on the parade are pure fun: those moving ads for bars and clubs, complete with non-stop dance music, or the group "Gays for Patsy", complete with a Patsy Cline-clone lip-synching her songs while a group of cowboys and cowgirls dance the Texas two-step behind her. Still others are defiant, celebratory or moving, and sometimes all at once: PWAs being wheeled by the volunteers in their hospice, PFLAG (Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gay Men) marching proudly alongside their grown children, and of course the variety of religious groups such as the Jewish association Am Tikva, and the Metropolitan Community Church (Protestant), Dignity (Roman Catholic), and Integrity (Episcopal), along with inclusive and welcoming mainstream religious groups like the Unitarians. One of the high points of the march is in front of the Arlington St. Church (Unitarian) which flies the rainbow flag proudly, and greets every participant for the duration of the march with a continuous peal of its bells. It is notable for recently having elected a Lesbian as its chief minister, and its support for gay people goes back for many, many years. One wonders which of Benning's recommendations were taken by the vocal anti-gay minority in Boston that weekend, for they were nowhere to be found. They certainly weren't missed, although there is a kind of warm satisfaction to be gained observing a cowed crowd of people with Bible quotes on placards being greeted by 90,000 people strong shaking their arms and shouting "Shame, shame" as they pass by. -- Steve Dyer dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer dyer@arktouros.mit.edu, dyer@hstbme.mit.edu
lcrew@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Louie Crew) (06/17/91)
benning@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com writes: > "LESBIAN-GAY PRIDE DAY." > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >What is the opinion of the S.R.C. folks what the local Christian community >should do (If Anything) in response to this city function? I know of at least eight parishes who will send their own members, straight as well as gay, to tote the parish banner in the religion section of the NYC parade. In the Episcopal diocese of Baltimore most parishes rotate in taking out ads in the local lesgay paper, saying "St. ___'s welcomes you! Services at [times]" Other Christian groups march with parts of the parade more specifically focused, such at the PFLAG group (Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays) and the SAGE group (Seniors Active in Gay Education). Jesus answers your question more generically, "Love your lesgay neighbor as you love yourself." Louie Crew Member of the Vestry, Grace Church, Newark (home of "America the Beautiful") Louie Crew . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . lcrew@andromeda.rutgers.edu Associate Professor . . . . . . . . . . . . . .lcrew@draco.rutgers.edu Academic Foundations Department . . . . . . . CompuServe No. 73517,147 Rutgers: The State University of New Jersey. . . . . . 201-485-4503 h P. O. Box 30 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 201-648-5434 o Newark, NJ 07101 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 201-648-5700 FAX Only a dead fish floats with the current.
kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie) (06/21/91)
Bruce Benning writes about an upcoming Lesbian Gay Pride Day, and asks:
> But were this your city, what would your body of Christ do?
Divide against each other and fight among ourselves, which is what
Christians have been doing for thousands of years.
Some of your suggestions seem useless or worse; traditional relationships are
not scorned by our society, so there is not much need for a rally. If any of
the rally-ers are Christian, they know everything which will be said about
the Bible -- and the marchers who are not Christian will not care -- so
witnessing to them would only cause trouble.
And this brings to mind an important question: why should Christian wish to
interfere in what non-Christians do? If non-Christians do things which you
consider sinful, but which do not involve any unwilling (or incompetent)
individuals, what is your place to speak?
Going off to the country or having a prayer vigil both might do some good (and
will at least not make anyone else unhapy), so they seem like better choices.
No-one expects anyone to support what he considers sinful; it would be
unreasonable to encourage very conservative Christians to join the rally.
(Though liberal Christians may and some probably would.)
-=-=-
Here's a little (completely true) parable:
In one place that I have heard of, there was a Lesbian-Gay rally which was
opposed by a local church (which, I am ashamed to say, was Southern Baptist).
This church is (for my tastes) uncomfortably patriotic; they had a party for
the American Bicentennial (complete with period costume) and the choir once
performed a song called "America The Greatest and The Best". (Ugh)
Well, the pastor attacked the mayor for allowing the rally, saying that it
should not have been permitted. Here was the leader of the most pro-American
church I've ever been in, and he was denying the First Amendment to the
Constitution -- specifically, "the right of the people peaceably to assemble".
The mayor was quite blameless: he had no grounds to stop the Lesbian-Gay
rally/parade unless he also cancelled the Fourth of July parade. But those
committed to their traditional way of life (instead of the ideals which
support it) sometimes do not recognise that they are destroying what they
hold dear.
kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu Darren F. Provine ...njin!gboro!kilroy
"I never said a guy who wears glasses is a queer! A guy who wears glasses
is a *four-eyes*; a guy who's a *fag* is a queer." -- Archie Bunkercarlson@abcfd01.larc.nasa.gov (Ann Carlson) (06/21/91)
In article <Jun.15.02.08.07.1991.18651@athos.rutgers.edu>, benning@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com writes: |> |> On June 22, The City of CLEVELAND will be celebrating the third annual |> |> "LESBIAN-GAY PRIDE DAY." |> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ |> Many of the citizens of this fine city who have chosen a "alternate" Life |> style will take to the streets in 'pride', proclaiming their victory over |> traditional (male/female) relationships. I don't think this is the point at all. Perhaps the victory is that they can live and relate to people as they are, rather than having to pretend to be something they are not. |> |> What is the opinion of the S.R.C. folks what the local Christian community |> should do (If Anything) in response to this city function? |> Even though I am still not sure what I believe about God's opinion of homosexual relationships, I would probably march with them or participate in some way if given the opportunity. (Please don't tell me what God has to say, I know the Bible and have read nearly all of the books which deal with the issue, from both the pro and con sides. I'm still not sure and need to decide for myself.) But regardless of the sexual morality issue, there are a lot of things which have been wrong about society's treatment of gays and lesbians which the christian community needs to take a stand against. we should be in the forefront of condemning hate crimes and should support the right to be honest about ourselves without fear of recrimination. Even for those who are sincerely convinced that all homosexuality is sin, i think it's important not to be thought of as anti-people. Jesus was never soft on sin, but at the same time he was very attractive to and accepting of sinners. I want to learn to live the same way, so that i don't condone sin but neither do i condemn the sinner. Ann Carlson (carlson@abcfd01.larc.nasa.gov)
crf@broccoli.princeton.edu (Charles Ferenbaugh) (06/21/91)
In article <Jun.16.20.05.54.1991.17138@athos.rutgers.edu> ipoulin@uavax0.ccit.arizona.edu writes: >In article <Jun.15.02.08.07.1991.18651@athos.rutgers.edu>, benning@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com writes: >> On June 22, The City of CLEVELAND will be celebrating the third annual >> "LESBIAN-GAY PRIDE DAY." >> ... What is the opinion of the S.R.C. folks what the local Christian >> community should do (If Anything) in response to this city function? > > What I would start with is a reflection of what Jesus Christ would have >done.... He would have offered His love, as we should, His forgiveness, as we >should, and His support, as we should. Unfortunately it's not quite that easy. Jesus offered love and forgiveness and support to people who were aware of their sins; he could tell them, "Go and sin no more," in the context of that love. But to people who didn't realize their sins, he couldn't do that; he first had to make them understand how much their sin was hurting them. Hence all the harsh sayings about "broods of vipers" and so forth. In a situation such as "Lesbian-Gay Pride Day", it sounds as if no one involved is saying that there's anything wrong with homosexuality. So if you want people to realize that homosexuality goes against what God created us to be, you'd better say it explicitly. It's sad that so many people nowdays are spreading God's forgiveness to people who don't realize what they need to be forgiven for... To make a parallel, imagine what would have happened if a well-meaning follower of Jesus had said to the woman caught in adultery, "There, there, I understand the sexual frustrations you're going through, and all the abuse you're taking from those nasty Pharisees, but don't worry, I'm not going to condemn you, you go off and do whatever you want and don't worry about them..." Notice the subtle difference from Jesus' words. Grace and peace, Charles Ferenbaugh
lhccjeh@lure.latrobe.edu.au (James Hale) (06/21/91)
In article <Jun.15.02.08.07.1991.18651@athos.rutgers.edu>, benning@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com writes: > On June 22, The City of CLEVELAND will be celebrating the third annual > "LESBIAN-GAY PRIDE DAY." > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >... > What is the opinion of the S.R.C. folks what the local Christian community > should do (If Anything) in response to this city function? > I love parades. As to the sexual/emotion disposition of the organisers I have no opinion. They are my brothers and sisters in Christ. God loves us all regardless of anything we may do or not do, may be or not be. Who am I to argue with Him? And no, I'm not gay. Perhaps the perception of a problem is only there because we want to see it? _____________________________________________________________________________ James Hale Lincoln School of Health Sciences Computing Unit La Trobe University,Bundoora, AUSTRALIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- My sinless brother is my guide to peace. | Lesson 351 My sinful brother is my guide to pain. | Workbook P470 And which I choose to see I will behold. | _____________________________________________________________________________
st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) (06/22/91)
When someone proposes an idea such as the promotion of Lesbian/Gay pride,
then even if I myself may not agree with such an idea, this does not excuse
me from my responsibility to respect the dignity of that person. A
stance like this provides the opportunity to enter someone's world, something
which I think we all need to do more.
Perhaps a good way to establish dialogue in this case would be to ask
why they feel they need to be proud, or why, for that matter, anyone should
be proud.
Steve Timm
Steven Timm Physics Department Carnegie Mellon
"Shame on you, and shame on you again
for converting me into a bullet and
shooting me into men's hearts." Richard Harris c 1972mib@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell) (06/23/91)
Well, I can say what I did when Boston held its annual pride day on June 8 this year. I went down, and saw a lot of people. That really sums it up. What I saw was parents, kids, fat people, skinny people, tall people, short people, men, women, blacks, whites, hispanics, asians, Christians, Jews, Muslims, agnostics, atheists, neo-pagans, and everything else you could imagine. It's hard to imagine a more diverse band of 96,000 folks. Well, almost hard. It's safe to say that they all had one thing in common: they were all supportive of the civil rights of lesbian and gay persons. I saw several people from my congregation, both gay and straight, but because we were poorly organized we didn't march together in the parade. I marched with some Episcopalians. Probably the high point was walking by the Arlington Street Church, with its rainbow flag proudly flown and its bells pealing loudly. It really made my day. In fact, the one thing the Christians of Boston did this year is support the parade. There were Catholics, Presbyterians, Congregationalists, Episcopalians, Evangelicals (yes, that's right), and probably quite a few groups I didn't get a chance to see. A group of monks (or were they friars?) waved support from their building (and flew the rainbow flag). They will doubtless be frowned upon by the local Catholic Bishop for doing so. To answer the specific questions of Bruce Benning, and how such thoughts would be viewed by me and my peers: -Would you follow the parade with your own "traditional relationship" rally? That would be seen as hateful. Frankly, I think that is about on a par as people holding "white pride" rallies. If you don't understand why "white pride" rallies are racist, and "black pride" rallies are not, in our society, then this will be lost on you. But for those of you who do understand the difference, there is a similar difference between gay pride rallies and "traditional relationship" rallies. -Would you talk to the participants about what is wrong with the selection they made for their sexual "orientation" according to G-ds word? Again, for me, that would be pointless. I'd point out that I don't think God's Word addresses the subject significantly, and certainly not in the way you suggest. I'd point to the priests, ministers, nuns, etc., marching with me, and suggest you talk to them. Also, you would find very few who felt they made any kind of selection at all. -Perhaps you would take the day off to go to the country with the family? Fine. But are you doing it because you don't want the family to see gay people happy and content? That would really be hiding the world from your children. If they are to grow up able to cope with the world, they need experience with it, even the parts you don't like. And, who knows? If they are gay, they will see a lot of positive role models from the parade. Someone at my church told me they were glad to see a young gay man in the church -- she said that if her son (about 10) is gay (she doesn't know) she's glad that I would be there as a role model. -Have a city wide 24 hour prayer vigil on June 22? Always a good idea to pray. What about congregations which openly affirm gay people? Are they to be included in your prayer vigil? I hope the prayers would be for "acceptance, tolerance, and understanding" and not "God, please teach those people how wrong they are"... -Maybe have a group of brothers and sisters join the party and tell everyone how much "we" support their cause. If you really meant it, that would be wonderful. You would be more than welcome to show up, march if you prefer, cheer, and have a good time. I'm unsure, by your wording, if you are sincere, however. If not, it would be better if you didn't come. Gay pride rallies are not productions for straight people to "laugh at the queers". -mib
tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (06/23/91)
In article <Jun.21.03.36.25.1991.14401@athos.rutgers.edu> kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie) writes: >And this brings to mind an important question: why should Christian wish to >interfere in what non-Christians do? If non-Christians do things which you >consider sinful, but which do not involve any unwilling (or incompetent) >individuals, what is your place to speak? First a disclaimer, I do not necessarily espouse the beliefs I am about to outline. I am merely attempting to answer the question. Many Christians consider homosexual behaviour to be sinful. They also believe that while sinful behaviour may be forgiven, it requires that the sinner repent from that behaviour. Rallying for the acceptance of homosexual behaviour from this view would be encouraging sinners to not repent of their sins. If we assume that non-repentent sinners are damned to Hell for all of eternity, then such a movement systematically damns a large number of individuals who, (if they repented), need not be damned. Christians as a general rule don't like the idea of anyone going to Hell, so a Christian holding the above beliefs may feel moved to save these people from damnation. Following this system of beliefs, they would have to oppose efforts to promote the acceptance of homosexuality. So, you may find that Christians who oppose you, do so out of love. A number of persons feel quite strongly that I should observe the Sabbath from Friday evening to Saturday evening. They quite sincerely believe that I may be damned for failing to do so. They seek out of love to save my soul from damnation. I can't fault them for it. I personally believe differently, but I will not prompt them to give up their Sabbath observance. They feel it would be a sin for them to do so, and I agree that it would be a sin for them to do so, since they believe it would be. In the United Methodist Church, there are a couple of movements. The first movement I became aware of was the "Reconciling Congregations" movement. This movement seeks to reconcile congregations who have been divided over the issue of homosexuality. A second movement if I remember the name is the "Transforming Congregations" movement. This movement seeks to accept homosexuals, but not homosexuality, (love the sinner, hate the sin), they believe that with propper counseling, Christian love, etc. homosexuals may be transformed. Neither movement is officially sanctioned by the UMC that I know of. In my mind, we have spent far too much time fighting over the issue of homosexuality in the church. One thing I know, all homosexuals (celibate or not) are sinners, and all heterosexuals (celibate or not) are also sinners. I do not know if homosexuality is a sin or not. (The Bible states several times that it is). One thing I do know is a sin though, our constant fighting over this matter. Through our fighting we only further divide the body of Christ. We as the church should not be tearing down our brothers and sisters, but (rather) building them up. Let us not be a stumbling stone to them. If they are right with God, then God will guide them. It may be that God may guide some away from homosexuality, it may be that God will affirm their homosexuality. It's not for me to say. I don't recall Jesus ever saying that we are to turn one another from our sins. (He does give us instruction on what do if we feel our brother or sister has sinned *against us*, but that is a very different matter.) Jesus does tell us several times that we are not to judge one another, and if we do judge one another, then the same standards will be used by God to judge us. Jesus also calls us to love one another as he loved (loves) us. Those of us who support our homosexual brothers and sisters often accuse those who oppose them of being hypocritical. ("Who are they to judge?" "Do they call that 'Christian Love'?" etc.) But when we in turn judge them we are every bit as guilty as they are, (if not moreso). I personally feel that we should stop judging each other, and work on that matter of loving one another. Jesus tells us to make of all disciples, but he also tells us that the way people will know that we are his disciples is by our love for one another. I personally don't feel that this bickering gains us a single disciple, (it only alienates disciples), and an outsider might be very hard pressed to find evidence of our love for one another. Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton [I'm not going to make any substantive comments on this, despite a great desire to do so, as I'm trying to use my time to reduce the backlog. However you may be doing your conservative brethren a disservice in characterizing their views. The concept that a sin must be repented of in order to be forgiven is one of the major ideas that Luther opposed during the Reformation. What if you forget one? What if you are wrong about something? Many (most?) of those who believe homosexuality is sinful also believe that if a homosexual relies upon God for his salvation, he will not be disappointed. I believe the same is true of worship on Saturday. I've detected things in some postings that imply that salvation may be at risk. But I have no reason to think that the majority of Sabbath-keepers really believe that failure to worship on Saturday will cause someone who trusts in God to be damned. --clh]
gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn) (06/23/91)
In article <Jun.21.03.36.25.1991.14401@athos.rutgers.edu> kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie) writes: > And this brings to mind an important question: why should Christian wish to > interfere in what non-Christians do? If non-Christians do things which you > consider sinful, but which do not involve any unwilling (or incompetent) > individuals, what is your place to speak? I guess it depends what you mean by "interfere". "Interfere" is not the same as "speak". I do think it would be entirely wrong if christians never say anything about sin to sinners, but I don't think we should "interfere" (which to me means doing something like wading into the parade in question with billy clubs or something like that). Consider perhaps Ezekiel 3:18-19: "When I [God] say unto the wicked, 'Thou shalt surely die'; and thou [Ezekiel] givest him not warning, nor speaketh to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, to save his life; he shall die in his iniquity; but thou has delivered thy soul." Things to note here is that we should tell the sinner about their sin so they will consider God's offer to save their life. We don't do it because we're a bunch of mean bastards who want to make the person feel miserable. There's also a new-testament passage that touches on this, by saying something along the lines of "How will a sinner repent if no one tells them what the real score is?" (okay, so that's a loose paraphrase, it's pretty late at night here...). Also, this particular passage is only interested in making sure the sinner is *told* of his or her sin. It isn't a call to beat the sinner until they hide their sin from us, or to get into shouting matches with them so we can go home smug about the fact that our side yelled louder than "the other" side. The objective is to give them information. For the original poster who was interested in suggestions, I'd suggest that any reaction to the parade would keep that objective in mind. Perhaps this passage does not directly apply to us, seeing it was a conversation between God and Ezekiel. I can't think of any passage where God tells someone to go into the world, and *not* tell anyone else about sin, and *not* care if other people have at least heard what God has taken the time to tell us. - - - - - - - - Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu