vanscoy@cs.wvu.wvnet.edu (Frances L VanScoy) (06/17/91)
For the next two Sundays I'll be teaching (as a substitute) Matthew 24-25
in an adult Sunday School class.
Any advice?
Frances Van Scoy
vanscoy@a.cs.wvu.wvnet.edujgj@travis.ssd.csd.harris.com (Jeff Jackson) (06/21/91)
> For the next two Sundays I'll be teaching (as a substitute) Matthew 24-25 > in an adult Sunday School class. > > Any advice? Yes. The main thing I would like to point out is that there are *two* questions asked by the disciples: "when will this happen" and "what will be the sign of your comming and of the end of the age?". [24.3 NIV]. The problem is separating out the answers. The "this" refered to in "when will this happen" is refering to the event Jesus had just predicted: "not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down. An excellent reference here is Eusibius (sp?), where he discusses the events surrounding the fall of Jerusalem (quoting extensivly from Josephus). I had been raised in the tradition that that treats the entire passage as end times stuff. When I read the Eusibius account, my reaction was "My God! He's describing Math. 24!" I don't have the book at work with me, but I will try to comment below: (Boy its nice to have the NIV online and no I can't mail you a copy. I bought MacBible and uploaded it -- that is legal as long as it is used only used one machine at a time -- also, it is legal to quote up to 1000 verses without permission). Matt. 24:1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 "Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." 3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" 4 Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, `I am the Christ, ' and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains. -- Eusibius recounts earthquakes in the region occuring. There -- were certainly many rumours of wars before the Romans invaded. -- As the text says, this was just the beginning. 9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. -- Many great persecutions against Christians were inflicted by -- the Romans and others. Much of Eusibius deals with martyrs. -- Heresies were also common. Witness especial the gnostics and the -- arians. The preaching to the whole world is a goal yet to be -- reached. 15 "So when you see standing in the holy place `the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel --let the reader understand-- 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now --and never to be equaled again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or, `There he is!' do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect --if that were possible. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time. -- This is talking about the beseging of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70AD. -- The abomination was the alter to Jupiter that was built in the -- temple grounds. The horrors desribed by Eusibius (quoting Josephus) -- are terrifying enough to keep you awake at night. 26 "So if anyone tells you, `There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, `Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. -- There have been false christs for over 1900 years 29 "Immediately after the distress of those days "`the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' 30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. -- This passage is behind the traditional interpretation of the -- whole thing as the tribulation 7 years before the end. However -- persecutions have been going on for 1900 years, and thus the -- "distress of those days" are still these days. Eusibius believed -- that "the sign of the Son of Man [that] will appear in the sky" -- was the sign of the cross saw by Emperor Constantine when he converted -- to Christianity and made it the official religion of the -- Roman Empire. I don't recall if the following verse were taken -- metaphorically by Eusibious or not. 32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. -- Eusibius' understanding of the verses explanis the statement -- "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these -- have happened." if "all these things refer" to to the destruction -- of Jerusalem some 40 years ofter the statement. 36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. -- This clearly referes to the end of time. 42 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. One thing to note, I rather suspect that if you were there when Jesus was teaching these things, you would be witnessing a conversation, not a long speach. Matthew tends to collect teachings together into lectures to get to the meat of what Jesus was teaching as briefly as possible. -- ============================================================================ Jeffrey Glen Jackson _|_Satan jeered, "You're dead meat Jesus, I'm gonna jgj@ssd.csd.harris.com | bust you up tonight." x5120 | Jesus said, "Go ahead, make my day." ~~~~~~~~~ -- Carman, "The Champion"
gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn) (06/23/91)
In article <Jun.21.04.45.51.1991.16491@athos.rutgers.edu> jgj@travis.ssd.csd.harris.com (Jeff Jackson) writes: > > For the next two Sundays I'll be teaching (as a substitute) Matthew 24-25 > > in an adult Sunday School class. > > > > Any advice? > > Yes. The main thing I would like to point out is that there are *two* > questions asked by the disciples: "when will this happen" and "what > will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?". [24.3 > NIV]. The problem is separating out the answers. The "this" referred > to in "when will this happen" is referring to the event Jesus had just > predicted: "not one stone here will be left on another; every one will > be thrown down. There may be two issues in the passage, but if there are I'm not sure you're splitting them up correctly. > [skipping along - gad] > 4 Jesus answered: "... 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see > to it that you are not alarmed. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains. > -- Eusibius recounts earthquakes in the region occurring. There > -- were certainly many rumours of wars before the Romans invaded. > -- As the text says, this was just the beginning. Note that the section talks about a lot more than merely rumours of wars, it mentions nation rising up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. How many nations were rising against nations back then, and how many kingdoms were rising against kingdoms? An perhaps more tellingly, how many of those events would have been known about in Israel? The Inca's may have been rising against the Aztecs at the time, but there would be no point in Jesus including that as a sign to the people of Israel because they would not have heard about it. > 9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and > you will be hated by all nations because of me. ... 14 And this > gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a > testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. > -- Many great persecutions against Christians were inflicted by > -- the Romans and others. Much of Eusibius deals with martyrs. > -- Heresies were also common. Witness especial the gnostics and the > -- arians. The preaching to the whole world is a goal yet to be > -- reached. verse 9 says "hated of all nations". Presumably this would indicate a greater list than the few nations that were upset with Christianity at the time of the fall of Jerusalem. You also note that verse 14 has not happened yet, and yet it's in the middle of this passage. Why would Jesus interject a sign that would not be seen until (say) 2000AD in the middle of a list of signs for the fall of Jerusalem? > 15 "So when you see standing in the holy place `the abomination that > causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel --let the > reader understand-- If this verse is indeed referring to the abomination of desolation talked about in Daniel 9:27, then you also need to fit the prophecies of that passage to the events going at during the fall of Jerusalem. I'm not sure that the events match up with the passage. (but maybe they do) > 21 For then there will be great > distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now --and > never to be equaled again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, > no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be > shortened. While the destruction of Jerusalem was grim, it's probably safe to say that we've surpassed that level of distress a few times in this century alone. It also talks about "the days being cut short", what would that match up with WRT the fall of Jerusalem? It also mentions that if it wasn't for this shortening of days, *no one* would survive. Again, it's not until this century that we have the armaments that make that prediction quite plausible. The romans of the day couldn't have killed everyone even if they wanted to, because they didn't have the means for really massive, unrestrained destruction. > 23 At that time if anyone says to you, `Look, here is the > Christ!' or, `There he is!' do not believe it. 24 For false Christs > and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to > deceive even the elect --if that were possible. 25 See, I have told > you ahead of time. > > -- This is talking about the besieging of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70AD. > -- The abomination was the alter to Jupiter that was built in the > -- temple grounds. The horrors described by Eusibius (quoting Josephus) > -- are terrifying enough to keep you awake at night. Presumably you haven't read what went on in Germany under Hitler. That can keep you awake nights too, if one reads all the details. And if you consider the temple of Jupiter the abomination, then who is the person who "confirms the covenant with many" for one week? (getting back to Daniel here...). The abomination is described (in Daniel) as happening in the midst of that covenant. Is there a plausible covenant (with "many") in effect at the time of the fall of Jerusalem? > 26 "So if anyone tells you, `There he is, out in the desert,' do not > go out; or, `Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it... > -- There have been false christs for over 1900 years > > 29 "Immediately after the distress of those days "`the sun will be > darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall > from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' This part has certainly not happened. Your thesis is then that verses 4-25 are details up to and including the fall of Jerusalem, and verses 26-30 summarize the following 1900 or so years. This does not seem plausible (particularly since verse 26 is pretty much a tie-in to verses 4-5, and the remaining verses fit in pretty well with verse 26 (in the sense that it's not obvious why verse 26 would be talking about something in <100 AD, and verse 29 is talking about something in >2000 AD). > 30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky,... > And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call ... > -- This passage is behind the traditional interpretation of the > -- whole thing as the tribulation 7 years before the end. However > -- persecutions have been going on for 1900 years, and thus the > -- "distress of those days" are still these days. Eusibius believed > -- that "the sign of the Son of Man [that] will appear in the sky" > -- was the sign of the cross saw by Emperor Constantine when he converted > -- to Christianity and made it the official religion of the > -- Roman Empire. Constantine was most certainly not the second coming of Jesus. If Constantine's dream (dream mind you, not a sign in the sky) was the sign of the Son of Man, then where in our history books do we find all the nations of the earth mourning? Also note that the above passage is not the only reason behind the traditional interpretation. The tradition interpretation comes about from trying to mesh together the prophecies of Ezekiel, Daniel, Matthew 24, and Revelation (and maybe some other spots, I'm a bit rusty on this). When you fit all those prophecies together, you pretty much end up with the "He" of Daniel 9:27 (the guy making the covenant) being the same as the Antichrist. The same Antichrist that Jesus will vanquish at his return. If you want that "he" to be someone who signed a covenant before the fall of Jerusalem, then "he" is going to be a very old man by the time the final chapter is played out here. I don't mean to be as flippant about your thesis as this may sound, but I do believe that there are a number of problems with it once all the pieces are considered. - - - - - - - - Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
jgj@travis.ssd.csd.harris.com (Jeff Jackson) (06/26/91)
> There may be two issues in the passage, but if there are I'm not sure you're > splitting them up correctly. Nor am I. I intended to show more of how Eusebius saw it than myself, though I find Eusebius' view quite attractive (btw, Eusebious lived c. AD 260-339, in case you were unaware of how ancient he is). > Note that the section talks about a lot more than merely rumours of wars, it > mentions nation rising up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. How > many nations were rising against nations back then, and how many kingdoms were > rising against kingdoms? An perhaps more tellingly, how many of those events > would have been known about in Israel? The Inca's may have been rising against Neither I nor Eusebius thought the Inca's were involved here. The proposed interpretation is that we are talking specifically about palestine, not the world view. > Why would Jesus interject a sign that > would not be seen until (say) 2000AD in the middle of a list of signs for the > fall of Jerusalem? Perhaps "hated of all nations" should be taken with an ounce of metaphor. That is, it is a process that started then and will end at the end. We are seeing it *happening* and have been for 1950 years or so. > If this verse is indeed referring to the abomination of desolation talked about > in Daniel 9:27, then you also need to fit the prophecies of that passage to the > events going at during the fall of Jerusalem. I'm not sure that the events > match up with the passage. (but maybe they do) Perhaps it does. "In the end of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, untill the end that is decreed is poured out on him." Sacrifice and offering ended in 70AD. As I recall, the Roman's started the seighe in 67AD -- about half of seven years earlier. Interesting coincidence -- assuming my memory is correct -- I don't have a chronological table in front of me at the moment. > While the destruction of Jerusalem was grim, it's probably safe to say that > we've surpassed that level of distress a few times in this century alone. I don't know about that. When was the last time a city resorted to cannabilism because the were being starved by an invading army? Josephus records, according to Eusebius -- I really should look up the original reference, but all I have with me today is Eusebius --, that 3,000,000 jews had come to Jerusalem for the passover when the attack occured and that 1,100,000 died. > Constantine's dream (dream mind you, not a sign in the sky) If memory serves me, at least one of the accounts of this claims that he is supposed to have seen a sign in the sky, but I don't know the reference or whether it is my memory conflating different things. > The tradition interpretation comes about from trying to mesh > together the prophecies of Ezekiel, Daniel, Matthew 24, and Revelation While I am not familiar with all such schemes, I have major problems with Hal Lindsey's appoach. He creates this huge senerio using Daniel 11. Unfortunately, Daniel 11 is all about Antiochus and that period of time and has absolutely nothing to do with end times. > I don't mean to be as flippant about your thesis as this may sound, but I do > believe that there are a number of problems with it once all the pieces are > considered. I didn't see one once of flippancy in your post. I am well aware that there are flaws in my thesis. I just think there are in the traditional one as well. My only dogmatism about eschatology is that I am non-dogmatic about eschatology (yes I know its spelt wrong, but my speller don't know it either -- so there). My millenial views are "pan-millenialist" -- it'll all pan out in the end. In fact, I absolutely refuse to share with anyone just what my opinion is regarding pre,post,a-millinialism. I will debate for whichever the other person is not though. This exchange has made me somewhat more interested in the topic. One more very important variable to look at with regard to Matthew 24 is Mark and Luke's parallel passages. The record the same discource, but with the arrangement and choice of materials being a little different. I have put together an ascii file with these parallels grouped paragraph by paragraph and intend to study it more -- along with the relevant Daniel passages (whichever are those). I'll try to remember to mail it to you when I'm done (note to moderator: would this be of enough interest to post? -- it will be somewhat like my first posting, only quoting more scripture but still under the 1000 verse limit in the NIV copyright notice). -- ============================================================================ Jeffrey Glen Jackson _|_Satan jeered, "You're dead meat Jesus, I'm gonna jgj@ssd.csd.harris.com | bust you up tonight." x5120 | Jesus said, "Go ahead, make my day." ~~~~~~~~~ -- Carman, "The Champion"