cole@maverick.uswest.com (Cole Keirsey) (06/22/91)
Barbara Wood wrote: """""""""""""""""""" There is no supernatural power or extra special annointing in anyone's hands; the power is in the prayer that is backed up by the life of the one doing the prayer. The most serious thing about this is, "what is in you, is transmitted onto the person of whom you lay your hands on, whether faith or unbelief." Take for instance a person who has a weak spiritual life who lays their hands on a person who has a strong spiritual life; the weaker one is blessed and the spiritual one is weakened as if he/she was drained of the spiritualality they had built up. The woman with the issue of blood drained spiritual power (virtue) from Jesus. The woman was healed when her faith extracted healing power from Jesus. (Matt 9:20-22; Luke 8:43-48) ****Note***** One can build up their spirit by reading/study of the Bible, prayer, fasting and obedient lifestyle which each are a Bible study of them- selves. """""""""""""""""""" Thanks to Barbara for the citations she provided on this interesting topic. I agree in part with her comments, but I'd like to present a different point of view for s.r.c readers to consider. Whenever we support someone else through prayer (with or without laying on of hands), it is God's power that helps the other person, not our own. God's power is infinite and inexhaustable. Praying for God to help someone else doesn't weaken or drain a person spiritually. On the contrary, it increases the spiritual strength of the person who is praying. When we pray for those in need, as Jesus and the apostles encouraged us to do, the net result is a gain for the church, not a gain and a loss that cancel one another out. We're all familiar with laws of conservation in physics (conservation of mass/energy, of charge, etc.), but I find no basis for thinking that similar laws apply to the power of the Spirit. Jesus said that virtue went out from him when the woman who touched him was healed. There is no indication that Jesus was less virtuous afterwards. On the other side of the coin, the Bible says of Christians that if they touch any evil thing, no harm will come to them. An analogy that helps me is to think of my life as a window that the light of God can shine through. Bible study and Christian living are like cleaning the window so that God's light shines through more clearly. If someone else sees and benefits from the light, that doesn't make my 'window' dirty again. The only thing I have to loose in the process is the opacity of sin. C. C. Keirsey
tas@pegasus.com (Len Howard) (06/25/91)
The Dean of our cathedral in Honolulu preached a sermon likening us to mirrors that shine the light into whereever it might not otherwise get to. I think that is a pretty good description of the life of a Christian.
sasjzc@dev.sas.com (James Cox) (06/26/91)
This is the first time I have posted to this newsgroup, but I find the discussions interesting (although sometimes it seems that people are arguing points without making their assumptions clear, when people on different sides may have very different assumptions). I have some strong ideas about prayer, including what I see as common misconceptions about it, but I also think it is extremely important in any kind of spiritual relationship with the Lord. First of all, I have a very rich and rewarding prayer life. I find that when I am down, I can talk to God and he will pull me up. And when I am arrogant, he points that out. It seems to me that my prayer takes the form of a two-way conversation --- and God never lets me gloss over what is important. He is my best friend. I find that when my relationship with God is strongest, right-kind of thinking comes more naturally. If I am in a car, and feel angry at the car ahead of me because it is going too slow, or waits until there are no cars in sight before it will turn at a stop sign, and I am tempted to honk at them, if my prayer relationship is strong, I will hear the gentle inner voice saying, "But they may be elderly, and may need to drive the way they do." And I suddenly realize how harassed I would feel in their situation if someone honked at me. HOWEVER, I feel strongly that prayer is misused by many well-meaning Christians. I would not raise this point if I did not think it led to a wrong-type of thinking. Some people seem to look at prayer as an attempt to get God to do something you want. I personally do not believe that God intercedes in our day-to-day life down here. If God did, he/she would be messing with our own free will. But, even if he/she does, the idea that God is going to alter his plan just because someone asks him to is horribly self-righteous. Some people seem to have the view that God has a fan-club, and he/she is impressed by fan mail. God comes into the office and asks St. Peter, "Well, what kind of prayer requests do we have today?" St. Peter responds, "Well, 5 people in Nantucket are praying that this little boy with AIDS lives". God says disappointedly, "Oh, only five? Let us see if we can do better than that!". St. Peter brightens. "But in OMiGosh, Wisconsin, we have a whole church praying that a three year old gets a kidney that his body will accept." God says, graciously, "Well, let's see what we can do for that boy". This example is clearly ridiculous, but it points out many misconceptions. People pray that God will heal someone, or that he/she will help them get the raise they need, or that he/she will help them get a date on Saturday night. This has several unfortunate consequences: 1. Their relationship with God becomes very self-centered, i.e. "God, what can you do for me?", rather than directed at spiritual growth. How would your friends react to you if your conversation with them was dominated by requests? 2. When the prayed-for event does not occur, people blame God, or, even worse, may blame themselves for not being spiritual enough. This is particularly bad if the event is something that the individual does have control over (e.g. getting a date Friday night). It is always a temptation to blame someone else for your own failures. It is much more advantageous to say, "God, what can I do to help myself get a date Friday night?" (And be prepared for an answer to come to you). 3. People begin to believe that God plays favorites. One thing that concerns me about the attitude of many Christians is that they seem to believe that they belong to a select, special club that can get God's "Ear" when they need to. This club even has passwords that all the faithful know, like "Are you SAVED??!" "Have YOU accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior???!" By saying "YES", you magically become a member of this special club. If there is any type of attitude that Jesus preached against, it was this one. I think if Jesus came today, he would speak of the born-again Christians much as he spoke of the Pharisees then. Does that mean I believe that intercessional (i.e. praying that God will intervene in our affairs) prayer should not be done? No. I think that when we are really praying unselfishly for someone else to succeed, we are accomplishing several purposes: 1. We are demonstrating that we care about this person. This is especially true when we include helping actions with our prayer. I definitely believe in self-healing, and a prime factor in this is wanting to get better, which is particularly easy when you know that people care. 2. We are establishing right-kind of thinking with regard to that other person. We are putting someone else's needs high enough on our list to interrupt our very personal conversation with the creator to talk about them. 3. We potentially can bolster the good in our relationship with them. When you show true respect and caring for another, they are likely to return that respect. One caveat, however. The phrase, "I will pray for you" is objectionable to many people (partially because it can imply that you have a direct link that is not available to them, or they may not even believe in God). I would ask that you remember Paul's admonishment not to eat sacrificed meat (as a means of recognizing the recipient's needs). Sometimes a statement like, "I care. What can I do to help" can be just as (if not more) effective for such people. With Love in Christ, Jim Cox
daly@strawber.princeton.edu (John Daly) (06/27/91)
In article <Jun.26.00.20.34.1991.21743@athos.rutgers.edu>, sasjzc@dev.sas.com (James Cox) writes: |> People pray that God will heal someone, or that he/she will help them |> get the raise they need, or that he/she will help them get a date on |> Saturday night. ... |> Does that mean I believe that intercessional (i.e. praying that God |> will intervene in our affairs) prayer should not be done? No. |> I think that when we are really praying unselfishly for someone else |> to succeed, we are accomplishing several purposes: Good post. I do not think that praying our own desires is necessarily bad though. Parents want to know what kind of Christmas presents their children would like to have, and as long as the parents are interested their children will be certainly comply. This does not presuppose that the parents will, or even should, get them everything they want. When such "desires of the heart" are shared, the whole family grows. I believe that it is important to go to God in prayer with our troubles AND our desires. When we do this humbly, it draws us closer to Him. It is one of the ways in which we give him that which He really wants from us anyway, our hearts.