hobrien@pluton.matrox.com (Hugh O'Brien) (06/14/91)
Hello,
I have many reservations about religion in general. Nobody
has "the answer". Religion does lots of good as well as lots of harm.
I went to a Roman Catholic elementary school. I was a good kid.
Twice a year the priest would came around to take confession. I had
no idea what to say. Therefore I would LIE and say something like,
"I disobeyed my Mother three times."
I once read somewhere that Italian children were suffering from
extreme anxiety from the confession ritual and were having psychological
problems because of it.
The Pope is a great man, but stuck in the 15th century. It is
a terrible thing to see him go to some underdeveloped and overpopulated
African country and preach against birth control. He ultimately is
counseling these people to continue spiralling their collective population
out of control. This will produce starvation and war. Thanks JPII.
It seems that one of the root concepts of many religions is,
"Pleasure is bad, feel ashamed". Face it, by the time all of us get
to grade eight, we all want so desperately to loose our virginity. When
we fially do experience the beauty and passion and fulfillment of our
first sexual experience (out of wedlock), than we have comitted a
mortal sin, correct? In other words, "have sex and go to hell".
I will stop here for now. However, I do have a few last words.
The bible is just one of many books in the world, don't let it rule
your life. Ultimately, "religion" is you, yourself. When you die,
and if there is a judgement, then it will be based on who you are,
and who you know yourself to be. You can have sex out of wedlock,
and do a million other things that are not approved by the religious
powers that be, and still be a good person. If you are a good person,
then you deserve to go to heaven, if it exists, just as much as someone
who has said the rosary every day of her/his life and adhered to the
moral code of such_and_such religion.
Also, there exists the VERY distinct possibility that death brings
absolute nothingness. Your state of conciousness is nothing more than
a manifestation of the processes of your body burning food. As an
astronomer would say, man is just some matter that has become aware
of its own existance and of the existance of the universe. If this
is true, then you must posess the moral strength to continue being
a good, decent human being. The meaning of life is then life itself,
without the need for some fantastic story that happened a long, long
time ago.
--
.............................................................................
Hugh O'Brien USENET:hobrien@matrox.com
//// Pat Paulsen for president in '92. \\\\
............................................................................. hetyei@athena.mit.edu (Gabor Hetyei) (06/15/91)
Dear Hugh, I have just one, maybe inpolite question: why do you call yourself a "nonpracticing Catholic" if you not only strongly disagree with Catholic teachings and practices, but even the Holy Scriptures is "just one of many books in the world" for you? I see what makes you nonpracticing, but what makes you Catholic or even Christian? Hope you don't mind the question. Gabor Hetyei Practicing Catholic Christian Nonpracticing Moslem Nonpracticing Hindu Nonpracticing Atheist Nonpracticing Agnostic etc. :-)
harling@pictel.uucp (Dan Harling) (06/23/91)
In article <Jun.13.23.25.04.1991.15714@athos.rutgers.edu> hobrien@pluton.matrox.com (Hugh O'Brien) writes: > > I will stop here for now. However, I do have a few last words. >The bible is just one of many books in the world, don't let it rule >your life. Ultimately, "religion" is you, yourself. When you die, >and if there is a judgement, then it will be based on who you are, >and who you know yourself to be. You can have sex out of wedlock, >and do a million other things that are not approved by the religious >powers that be, and still be a good person. True, you can be a "good person" (whatever that means) and do the things that you mention, as long as you define "good" to include these potential behaviors. >If you are a good person, >then you deserve to go to heaven, if it exists, just as much as someone >who has said the rosary every day of her/his life and adhered to the >moral code of such_and_such religion. You are half right. I agree with the second clause of this statement: that adherence to a particular religious moral code is not a prerequisite for salvation. However, I must disagree with the first clause: "If you are a good person, then you deserve to go to heaven." There is no Biblical basis for this statement; the only way you can support this is by using your own understanding of "good" and "Heaven." > Also, there exists the VERY distinct possibility that death brings >absolute nothingness. Your state of conciousness is nothing more than >a manifestation of the processes of your body burning food. But if my state of consciousness is purely the result of physical processes, then consciousness, reason, and will are all predetermined by efficient cause. This means that these things may seem rational to us, but there is no reason for us to believe they are true. Free will is therefore certainly an illusion, and reason amounts to thought patterns which we have found to work adequately in practice. > Hugh O'Brien ______________________________________________________________________ Daniel A. Harling PictureTel, Inc. Rockport, MA Peabody, MA Opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of PictureTel, Inc.; they are MINE, ALL MINE! (So there.) ---- === ====
sc1u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Stephen Chan) (06/25/91)
Well, I'm a recently converted Roman Catholic. And I have an opposing position to present. hobrien@pluton.matrox.com (Hugh O'Brien) writes: > I will stop here for now. However, I do have a few last words. > The bible is just one of many books in the world, don't let it rule > your life. Ultimately, "religion" is you, yourself. When you die, > and if there is a judgement, then it will be based on who you are, > and who you know yourself to be. When you're a Christian, you essentially surrender control of your life to God. You do not live for yourself, you live for God, on borrowed time. God rules your life, not yourself. In the words of Dietrich Bonheoffer (a Lutheran pastor) "When Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die." Christian religion (at least the variety which I practice) is not concerned with "me", but with God. As I live, and when I die, I will be judged by how closely my actions followed the will of God, not on how my actions followed my own particular inclinations. If, in the face of divine revelation, I willfully choose to "go my own way" then I have committed the fundamental sin: I have chosen my own will over that of God. > You can have sex out of wedlock, > and do a million other things that are not approved by the religious > powers that be, and still be a good person. If you are a good person, > then you deserve to go to heaven, if it exists, just as much as someone > who has said the rosary every day of her/his life and adhered to the > moral code of such_and_such religion. In general, when people talk about good and evil, good is that which fits within a visible, known framework of acceptable behavior. Evil is that which does not. So, even by conventional standards, you're essentially promoting "evil" as being "good". In a Christian sense, when you, on your own personal authority, declare that "so and so is good", you are trying to usurp God's role as the sole foundation of good & evil value judgements. Under either definition, your argument pretty much on the evil side of the line. > Also, there exists the VERY distinct possibility that death brings > absolute nothingness. Your state of conciousness is nothing more than > a manifestation of the processes of your body burning food. As an > astronomer would say, man is just some matter that has become aware > of its own existance and of the existance of the universe. That's right. It could very well be there is no God, and religion is merely "the opiate of the masses" as Karl Marx believed. Given that possibility, are you willing to *literally* BET YOUR LIFE on a set of principles uttered by a man who was crucified as a criminal 2000 years ago? That's what true faith is really about. This faith is the necessary condition for true selflessness...ie. "dying". > If this > is true, then you must posess the moral strength to continue being > a good, decent human being. Most people just "go with the flow" of the society, and manage to be considered good, decent human beings. "Moral Strength" is only exhibitted by opposition to the prevailing morality. Moral "strength" is NOT exhibitted by following popular morality. Today, pre-marital sex is very common. Independence is the prevalent theme nowadays. Traditional religion seems have picked up a stigma these days. But folks who subscribe to popular morality are still considered "good decent human beings". Is this moral "strength"? - Stephen Chan
hobrien@pluton.matrox.com (Hugh O'Brien) (07/01/91)
sc1u+@andrew.cmu.edu (Stephen Chan) writes: > Well, I'm a recently converted Roman Catholic. And I have an >opposing position to present. >hobrien@pluton.matrox.com (Hugh O'Brien) writes: >> I will stop here for now. However, I do have a few last words. >> The bible is just one of many books in the world, don't let it rule >> your life. Ultimately, "religion" is you, yourself. When you die, >> and if there is a judgement, then it will be based on who you are, >> and who you know yourself to be. > When you're a Christian, you essentially surrender >control of your life to God. You do not live for yourself, you live >for God, on borrowed time. God rules your life, not yourself. > In the words of Dietrich Bonheoffer (a Lutheran pastor) > "When Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die." "Surrendering control of your life to God" is a meaningless cop-out. It is just a code-word that says "Behave and think like we want you to behave and think like.". Sorry, not for me. > Christian religion (at least the variety which I practice) is >not concerned with "me", but with God. As I live, and when I die, I >will be judged by how closely my actions followed the will of God, not >on how my actions followed my own particular inclinations. How do you define the "will of God"? That expression means absolutely nothing to me. I will wager a guess that, like a broken record, you will refer back to God to define the "will of God". > In general, when people talk about good and evil, good is that >which fits within a visible, known framework of acceptable behavior. >Evil is that which does not. > So, even by conventional standards, you're essentially >promoting "evil" as being "good". Then you imply that conventional standards are "evil". Who says? Who are you or your "God" or your bible or your priest, to think that you can tell me that I am promoting "evil" when I am simply stating the obvious; be a good person and don't hurt others. You should be ashamed of yourself for saying this load of absolute crap. > In a Christian sense, when you, on your own personal >authority, declare that "so and so is good", you are trying to usurp >God's role as the sole foundation of good & evil value judgements. No I am not. I am saying that I believe myself to have enough common sense to differentiate between right and wrong. And, I have taken a leap of FAITH, that you are incapable of doing, that states "God, if it exists, is going to be a reasonable person and will properly treat the people of this earth who couldn't care less about all the organized religion 'song and dance' routines that some people seem to think must be done in order to make it into the afterlife." Also, I only claim to be able to judge my own actions, and not those of others. It you, however, that seem to be prepared to judge others, albeit under the guise of "God". > Under either definition, your argument pretty much on the evil side >of the line. Bullshit. > Given that possibility, are you willing to *literally* BET >YOUR LIFE on a set of principles uttered by a man who was crucified as >a criminal 2000 years ago? Are you telling me that if I don't take that chance, I may loose, and go to hell? In my opinion, the chance that I am taking, that God COULDN'T CARE LESS wether you are a Roman Catholic, Jew, Protestant, Moonie, Atheist, or Agnostic, or Buddist, or Hindu, or Muslem. That's my bet, and I feel it is a MUCH BETTER bet than yours. I will NEVER tell you not to practice your faith. But, I have a right to tell you what I think of your faith, especially the parts that I believe are HARMFUL to man. However, I resent you telling me that I am "misguided" and "evil". That's a load of rubbish, in my opinion. >> If this >> is true, then you must posess the moral strength to continue being >> a good, decent human being. > Most people just "go with the flow" of the society, and manage >to be considered good, decent human beings. > "Moral Strength" is only exhibitted by opposition to the >prevailing morality. Moral "strength" is NOT exhibitted by following >popular morality. > Today, pre-marital sex is very common. > Independence is the prevalent theme nowadays. > Traditional religion seems have picked up a stigma these days. > But folks who subscribe to popular morality are still >considered "good decent human beings". > Is this moral "strength"? Your use of quotations here is a pathetic joke. Yes, this IS moral strength. The moral strength to realize that pre-marital sex between two consenting people is their buisness ONLY, not your's, not the churchs'. Sometimes this will later cause problems for these people, and other times it will NOT. In fact, this beautiful act is a GOOD thing most of the time. It is a fundamental stepping stone towards proper emotional development. -- ............................................................................. Hugh O'Brien USENET:hobrien@matrox.com //// Pat Paulsen for president in '92. \\\\ .............................................................................