schiller@src.sony.co.jp (Christoph SCHILLER) (06/06/91)
[ I recenly found a book in which it was stated that there is an old tradition that Jesus was born with a bad leg, had curved shoulders and was in general of ugly appearance. Does anybody have any information on this tradition ? More details, more references, etc? What are the theological arguments for and against it? Christoph Schiller schiller@src.sony.co.jp
gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn) (06/07/91)
In article <Jun.5.23.52.40.1991.1337@athos.rutgers.edu> schiller@src.sony.co.jp (Christoph SCHILLER) writes: > I recenly found a book in which it was stated that there is > an old tradition that Jesus was born with a bad leg, had > curved shoulders and was in general of ugly appearance. > > Does anybody have any information on this tradition ? > More details, more references, etc? Seems to me he did an awful lot of walking for someone who had a bad leg. He kept walking up and down the country of Israel, for instance. One could probably check some of the passages that describe those walks and get an idea of how fast he could travel, and whether it makes any sense at all to think he had a bad leg. - - - - - - - - Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@rpi.edu or gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
zorak@cs.pdx.edu (Krezo) (06/07/91)
schiller@src.sony.co.jp (Christoph SCHILLER) writes: >[ >I recenly found a book in which it was stated that there is an >old tradition that Jesus was born with a bad leg, had >curved shoulders and was in general of ugly appearance. Many people could have had curved shoulders from hard work, or a lack or knowledge about good posture. >Does anybody have any information on this tradition ? >More details, more references, etc? My guess is the idea that Jesus humbled himself to be a man, why not go a little further. >What are the theological arguments for and against it? I don't know about Jesus being deformed, or ugly, but he was born a human. He put up with acne, disease, tripping over rocks and hurting himself, etc., just like you and me. But remember that the Jewish sacrifice called for a <SPOTLESS> lamb. And Jesus was our sacrifice, so that we can be forgiven without the need of killing animals. If he had a bad leg, etc., would this then make Him not spotless and disqualify Him from dying for us? Think about it and follow up this posting if you have further comments.
mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (06/07/91)
In article <Jun.5.23.52.40.1991.1337@athos.rutgers.edu> schiller@src.sony.co.jp (Christoph SCHILLER) writes: >[ >I recenly found a book in which it was stated that there is an >old tradition that Jesus was born with a bad leg, had >curved shoulders and was in general of ugly appearance. > >Does anybody have any information on this tradition ? >More details, more references, etc? > >What are the theological arguments for and against it? It's actually necessary if he is at all to be considered the Jewish Messiah (which I don't believe). If you read the passage popularly referred to as the Suffering Servant in Isaiah then you see, beside some heavily veiled references that some believe point to Jesus, the description of the Messiah as being not so fair in appearance... acquainted with pains and diseases... despised of men... I don't know why people don't actually *read* this passage and then try to match it up with Jesus rather than skimming it and assuming that they match up because everyone says they do... James mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
jclark@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (John Clark) (06/07/91)
In article <Jun.5.23.52.40.1991.1337@athos.rutgers.edu> schiller@src.sony.co.jp (Christoph SCHILLER) writes:
+[
+I recenly found a book in which it was stated that there is an
+old tradition that Jesus was born with a bad leg, had
+curved shoulders and was in general of ugly appearance.
There is a 'debated' description in the writings of the Jewish
writer Josephus.
+What are the theological arguments for and against it?
Theological?? Clearly, he wasn't blind and could walk long
distances. Probably didn't look as depicted in most artistic
renderings.
--
John Clark
jclark@ucsd.edugad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn) (06/10/91)
[In response to a discussion on the appearance of Jesus, mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu writes: > If you read the passage popularly referred to as the Suffering Servant > in Isaiah then you see, beside some heavily veiled references that some > believe point to Jesus, the description of the Messiah as being > > not so fair in appearance... > acquainted with pains and diseases... > despised of men... > > I don't know why people don't actually *read* this passage and then try > to match it up with Jesus rather than skimming it and assuming that they > match up because everyone says they do... --clh] To pin that passage down a bit more, I expect you're talking about Isaiah chapter 53. Verse 2 certainly implies a person with an appearance below average. There is nothing there that hints that the suffering servant would have to have a bad leg though. I don't know about the curved shoulders bit, perhaps that's what is meant by "he hath no form" (in verse 2)? That seems plausible to me, but I don't know if that verse really insists on a suffering servant with curved shoulders. If the written gospels are right, then there are many parallels between Isaiah 53 and the events recorded in the gospels. Jesus *was* despised, he was crucified in fact. The gospels claim that a whole crowd of people thought it quite reasonable to crucify him. It's reasonably to assume those people weren't exactly thrilled with him and his message. They rejected him. The churches I've been in have often refered to this chapter in detail, and compare the lines in the passage to events Jesus went thru. We may differ with you over some interpretations, but certainly we've done more than skim over the passage while simply assuming it must refer to Jesus. - - - - - - - - Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@rpi.edu or gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
rlt@gummo.att.com (Roberta L Taylor) (06/10/91)
In article <Jun.5.23.52.40.1991.1337@athos.rutgers.edu> schiller@src.sony.co.jp (Christoph SCHILLER) writes: >I recently found a book in which it was stated that there is an >old tradition that Jesus was born with a bad leg, had >curved shoulders and was in general of ugly appearance. >Does anybody have any information on this tradition ? I've never heard the specifics, but I have heard it said that Jesus was not a physically attractive man, based (at least in part) on Isaiah 53:2b: "...He hath no form nor comliness, and when we shall see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him." The idea being, of course, that people all too readily follow the outwardly charismatic teacher or leader, but those who followed Jesus did so because the Spirit drew them. ---- Roberta Taylor <>< | You let me sing a song for you every now and then, AT&T Bell Laboratories | But I'm asking you, when are you gonna listen? Whippany, NJ | You say I never sing about anyone but Jesus rlt@gummo.att.com | Well, that's because Jesus is my song. ---Anne Herring
burt@sequent.uucp (Burton Keeble) (06/10/91)
In article <Jun.6.23.13.10.1991.8497@athos.rutgers.edu> zorak@cs.pdx.edu (Krezo) writes: >schiller@src.sony.co.jp (Christoph SCHILLER) writes: > Stuff about Jesus' bad leg, posture, and appearance deleted 'cause we've read it several times already 8-). >I don't know about Jesus being deformed, or ugly, but he was born >a human. He put up with acne, disease, tripping over rocks and hurting >himself, etc., just like you and me. But remember that the Jewish sacrifice >called for a <SPOTLESS> lamb. ... This wasn't a *jewish* sacrifice. It was a cross-cultural statement in the form of a "sacrifice", and the "sacrificial lamb" would of necessity be *spiritually* spotless (i.e., without sin). I don't think Jesus' physical appearance would make any difference. For that matter, the Romans inflicted a fair amount of disfigurement before they nailed him to the cross. All I can say is that when I think and behave in the way that God wants me to,................. Good Things Happen! =8*) burt@sequent.sequent.com
jhpb@garage.att.com (Joseph H Buehler) (06/10/91)
In article <Jun.5.23.52.40.1991.1337@athos.rutgers.edu> schiller@src.sony.co.jp (Christoph SCHILLER) writes:
I recenly found a book in which it was stated that there is an
old tradition that Jesus was born with a bad leg, had
curved shoulders and was in general of ugly appearance.
Obviously incorrect, but: Where did you read this? One of the
non-canonical books of the early centuries, perhaps?
Please provide us with your source.gibbons@csn.org (Hugh Gibbons) (06/12/91)
In article <Jun.6.23.13.10.1991.8497@athos.rutgers.edu> zorak@cs.pdx.edu (Krezo) writes: >schiller@src.sony.co.jp (Christoph SCHILLER) writes: > >>[ >>I recenly found a book in which it was stated that there is an >>old tradition that Jesus was born with a bad leg, had >>curved shoulders and was in general of ugly appearance. > >I don't know about Jesus being deformed, or ugly, but he was born >a human. He put up with acne, disease, tripping over rocks and hurting >himself, etc., just like you and me. But remember that the Jewish sacrifice >called for a <SPOTLESS> lamb. And Jesus was our sacrifice, so that we can be >forgiven without the need of killing animals. If he had a bad leg, etc., would >this then make Him not spotless and disqualify Him from dying for us? > >Think about it and follow up this posting if you have further comments. Whatever else Jesus was, he was certainly very charismatic. People (by and large) regarded him favorably and he made a good impression on just about everybody. If he was ugly, it seems likely he would have had a smaller number of followers, but voice and conviction can make up for a lot there. If he had a bad leg, he wouldn't have been much for walking all over Judea,as a previous poster observed. He also would have dealt frequently with questions about why he didn't heal himself, since he was healing all these sinners he met... -- -------------------- :-) Hugh Gibbons (-: --------------------
johnw@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu (John Warren) (06/23/91)
In article <Jun.6.23.14.52.1991.8604@athos.rutgers.edu> mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu writes: >In article <Jun.5.23.52.40.1991.1337@athos.rutgers.edu> schiller@src.sony.co.jp (Christoph SCHILLER) writes: >>[ >>I recenly found a book in which it was stated that there is an >>old tradition that Jesus was born with a bad leg, had >>curved shoulders and was in general of ugly appearance. >> >>Does anybody have any information on this tradition ? >>More details, more references, etc? >> >>What are the theological arguments for and against it? > >It's actually necessary if he is at all to be considered the Jewish >Messiah (which I don't believe). >[part of Isaiah 53 follows:] > >not so fair in appearance... >acquainted with pains and diseases... >despised of men... Why is it necessary for him to have been ugly all his life? Didn't the passover lamb have to be spotless? If I had just been punched in the face several times by Roman soldiers, given 40 lashes with a cat-of-nine-tails (or whatever they called that kind of whip with metallic shards on the ends), and had a crown of very sharp thorns on my head, I would also not be so fair in appearance, acquainted with pains, at least. And by the time Jesus went through this treatment he had become very despised. Luke (around chap. 3 or 4) says that Jesus grew mentally, physically, socially, and spiritually. I can't see that God, who is perfect, would become anything less than the perfect specimen of humanity when he 'pitched his tent in human flesh' (Jn chap. 1). Doesn't mean that he couldn't get hurt, starve, asphyxiate on a cross, though. - John Warren _________________ Not that any of this is of more than tertiary importance to my faith. . .
tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) (06/26/91)
>>In article <Jun.5.23.52.40.1991.1337@athos.rutgers.edu> schiller@src.sony.co.jp (Christoph SCHILLER) writes: >>>[ >>>I recenly found a book in which it was stated that there is an >>>old tradition that Jesus was born with a bad leg, had >>>curved shoulders and was in general of ugly appearance. >>> >>>Does anybody have any information on this tradition ? >>>More details, more references, etc? In some publication which was dealing with "The Shroud of Turin", it mentioned that the Russian Orthodox Church's three barred cross developed because the image on the shroud portrays a man with one leg drawn up. (This publication suggested that the Christ had one foot nailed on top of another, and in rigor mortis the leg that was bent to allow this remained bent and slightly drawn up resulting in the appearance of the image on the shroud.) I have no idea whether or not this is a factual account, but following the same theme, it would seem that a crucified body which had been laid out might have "curved shoulders", and the broken nose and facial swelling (supposedly a result of the beating at the hands of the guards) would result in rather an ugly appearance. Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton
rblack@shemtaia.weeg.uiowa.edu (Roger Black) (07/01/91)
In article <Jun.9.15.22.36.1991.25560@athos.rutgers.edu>, jhpb@garage.att.com (Joseph H Buehler) writes: |> In article <Jun.5.23.52.40.1991.1337@athos.rutgers.edu> schiller@src.sony.co.jp (Christoph SCHILLER) writes: |> |> I recenly found a book in which it was stated that there is an |> old tradition that Jesus was born with a bad leg, had |> curved shoulders and was in general of ugly appearance. |> |> Obviously incorrect, but: Where did you read this? One of the |> non-canonical books of the early centuries, perhaps? |> |> Please provide us with your source. In the Talmud (Sanhedrin 106b) there is a passage which has been taken by scholars to be a covert slam at Jesus along the same lines: "Balaam the lame was thirty years old when Phinehas the Robber slew him." This is based on the fact that "Balaam" is one of several pseudonyms used in the Talmud for Jesus, and the Hebrew words translated "Phinehas the Robber" are a tolerable pun on "Pontius Pilate". There is a later tradition (preserved in the "Toldoth Jesu", Jewish anti-Christian tracts compiled during the Middle Ages) that Jesus became lame when he fell from a great height while performing acts of sorcery; but this is considered to be a derivative story based on the earlier language in the Talmud. Some scholars think the ascription is a reference to Jesus' stumbling under the weight of the crossbeam on the way to Golgotha, or to the fact that his feet were pierced during his crucifixion. [Source: "Jesus Christ in the Talmud, Midrash, Zohar, and the Liturgy of the Synagogue" by Gustav Dalman (1893), reprinted as part of the series "The Jewish People: History, Religion, Literature", Jacob B. Agus, editor, Arno Press, New York (1973).] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roger Black rblack@shemtaia.weeg.uiowa.edu Disclaimer: My employer doesn't even know I have any opinions. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------