piet@mcvax.UUCP (Piet Beertema) (09/20/84)
<...> >Maybe there should be a new group for these "for sale" postings: >net.forsale. I welcome the idea. But PLEASE don't name it net.forsale! This is typically not a worldwide but a domestic newsgroup, thus it should be called something like usa.forsale (!! :-)) or even more area-restricted. >Still waiting for net.dementia, It's there! Only it's called net.politics..... -- Piet Beertema, CWI, Amsterdam ...{decvax,philabs}!mcvax!piet
chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuqles) (09/21/84)
> >Maybe there should be a new group for these "for sale" postings: > >net.forsale. > I welcome the idea. But PLEASE don't name it net.forsale! This is typically > not a worldwide but a domestic newsgroup, thus it should be called something > like usa.forsale (!! :-)) or even more area-restricted. Piet has a point. To be quite honest most areas already have a forum for things being sold. Around here, it is called ba.general. This limits the distributions only to those sites in the Bay Area (generically San Francisco to San Jose more or less). Almost every region on the net has regional only groups set up. People should learn about them and be willing to use them-- it really isn't appropriate for someone in New Jersey to offer me an apartment rental because the commute costs to Sunnyvale would kill me. It also isn't appropriate to try to sell Piet a car from Oregon because the import restrictions are very costly and time consuming. It all comes down to something called audience and demographics. The big ad agencies know that if you are trying to sell to the people in Duluth you don't buy ad time in Rochester. We should take a hint from that. Ask your local guru what the local groups are, and use them! The previous has been an unpaid political announcement by the Bill the Cat for president committee. Any resemblance to intelligent conversation, whether living or dead, is completely coincidental. Besides, it probably won't do any good. -- From the spotlight of the center ring: Chuqles Von Rospach {amd,decwrl,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA Never force anyone to do anything for you 'in the name of love.' Love is not to be bargained for.
spaf@gatech.UUCP (Gene Spafford) (09/26/84)
> I welcome the idea. But PLEASE don't name it net.forsale! This is typically > not a worldwide but a domestic newsgroup, thus it should be called something > like usa.forsale (!! :-)) or even more area-restricted. > > Piet Beertema, CWI, Amsterdam I think most everyone is agreed that we need a forsale group. I also think that we are agreed that such groups should be fairly local, but there are bozos out there who don't (or won't) use local distributions (not to mention the sofftware which doesn't support it and which the site administrators can't or won't upgrade). Unless I receive significant negative response, I will create a usa.forsale in early October. At that time I will update the list-of-newsgroups and also post an announcement in net.announce so that people being using it instead of net.wanted. -- Off the Wall of Gene Spafford The Clouds Project, School of ICS, Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332 Phone: (404) 894-6169, (404) 894-6170 [messages] CSNet: Spaf @ GATech ARPA: Spaf%GATech.CSNet @ CSNet-Relay.ARPA uucp: ...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,masscomp,ut-ngp}!gatech!spaf ...!{rlgvax,sb1,seismo,uf-cgrl,unmvax,ut-sally}!gatech!spaf
acsgjjp@sunybcs.UUCP (Jim Poltrone) (09/28/84)
This is a corrected posting of an earlier article which I had cancelled. (I didn't include Piet's statement, which made Chuq's quote appear as if Piet had said it.) So if you get <582@sunybcs.UUCP>, burn it. Ok? --jp >> ..... This is typically >> not a worldwide but a domestic newsgroup, thus it should be called something >> like usa.forsale (!! :-)) or even more area-restricted. > ..... it really isn't appropriate for someone in New Jersey to > offer me an apartment rental because the commute costs to Sunnyvale would > kill me. It also isn't appropriate to try to sell Piet a car from Oregon > because the import restrictions are very costly and time consuming. A very good point, brought up by Piet Beertema (piet@mcvax), and seconded by Chuqui von Rospach (chuqui@nsc). If I had something for sale here in Buffalo, and someone else in another part of the country wanted it (why? I don't know. He's on third, and I don't give a darn! :-) ), would he/she be willing to come all the way here to inspect and/or purchase? I don't have the time/money/resources to go there and complete the trans- action, and neither do most of the people on the Net. The reason I proposed net.forsale is so that all these "for sale" notices woudn't appear in net.general, which is one of the most widely-read (if not the most read) newsgroups. Plus it would give me something to unsubscribe to. However, I have received some support for the creation of net.forsale (about 10-12 letters). But I have to leave the creation of newsgroups to the powers that be, namely, Mark Horton (mark@cbosgd). So until the newsgroups net.classifieds.* (with the subdivisions wanted, forsale, housing, etc.) are created, PLEASE.... *** use (your area).wanted for the time being for for-sale announcements. *** > The previous has been an unpaid political announcement by the Bill the Cat > for president committee. "ACK!" I want to join this committee! If I can't, I'll be forced to go work on a dental floss farm in Montana. :-)
jsgray@watmath.UUCP (Jan Gray) (10/01/84)
Please name the group na.forsale (North America), as opposed to usa.forsale. Cheers, Jan Gray (jsgray@watmath.UUCP) University of Waterloo (519) 885-1211 x3870
wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) (10/05/84)
The discussions of the correct regionality for a "forsale" newsgroup have ignored one important factor: the nature of the item for sale determines how widespread the distribution should be. There is no question that an ad for the sale of an ordinary automobile, or next week's local concert or football tickets, should be restricted to the local geographic region. However, an antique or collectible car is probably worth advertising nationwide (but not overseas); that is why there are national newsletters for car collectors. Hifi or camera gear can be easily shipped, and can be sold nationwide; only customs hassles mitigate against such sales crossing national borders. Again, that is why there are nationally-distributed "classified ad" publications for such items. The net (as part of the WorldNet concept long discussed on the Human-Nets Digest) can move to supplant and eventually replace such paper publications, so telling posters just to use these existing media merely begs the question; it is good that we address this issue seriously. I must admit that I do not know HOW to "enforce" rational distribution guidelines on a "forsale" group structure; this topic is worthy of discussion. Perhaps we can for now only publish guidelines, the same as exist for all net postings, and hope that they be observed. One step in this direction would be to list all the valid "distribution" codes, and make sure that a method of posting to them from outside the distribution area is available. For example, I am physically located in St. Louis, MO, but access the net via this host in Maryland. I would occasionally post items of interest to the St. Louis region, but for two reasons: 1. I cannot READ any items restricted to any such local distribution, so I don't know what has already been posted. 2. I know of no way for me to submit an item from this host that would be transmitted across the net and posted only in the St. Louis area hosts (this latter was discussed some months ago, but the exchange seemed to die off unresolved). (For that matter, I have no idea if a "stl" regional distribution exists! All I have ever seen mentioned are "nj", "ba", "btl", and a few others.) This problem is worthy of detailed exploration; somebody out there ought to be able to get a thesis project out of solving it, at least! Will Martin seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin or wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA
gordon@uw-june.UUCP (10/08/84)
I'd rather we kept the newsgroup and distribution orthogonal, that is,
create net.forsale and rely on posters stopping the distribution down and
thereby keeping the net from being flooded with articles advertising used
ping pong paddles. Am I really that naive? Of course not. I also suggest
that postnews be munged to notice when something is being posted to
net.forsale and, if the user doesn't specify a distribution, issue a
warning and a list of local distributions, and give the user another
chance. Something like this:
Subject: '75 Nova for sale
Newsgroups (general): net.forsale
Distribution (net.forsale):
Are you sure that this item is of worldwide interest? If not,
please use one of the following restricted distributions:
uwcsa, uw, seattle, usa, na
Distribution (net.forsale): seattle
As for how we're going to get people to install the new version of
postnews, that's easy. Whenever we see a lot of innapropriate postings
to net.forsale coming from one site, we flame the system administrator
of the offending site. In this case, the problem sites are a lot easier
to spot than with the line eater and other forwarding bugs.
Hmm, a similar trick might help the net.general situation...
--
Human: Gordon Davisson
USnail: 5008 12th NE, Seattle, WA, 98105
UUCP: {ihnp4,decvax,tektronix}!uw-beaver!uw-june!gordonspaf@gatech.UUCP (Gene Spafford) (10/08/84)
Based on this discussion and mail, I have created the group
"na.forsale". This group is to be used for posting any kind of "for
sale" notices. Admittedly, "na" (North America) is a bit wider
distribution than appropriate for most advertisements, but at least
everyone in Europe won't be seeing ads for football tickets for sale in
NJ. Hopefully, people will be more aware of the distribution when they
see the "na" -- it isn't as easy to take for granted as is the "net"
prefix.
I would strongly urge *everyone* to convert to 2.10.2 news. In 2.10.2,
whenever you post an article, you are given a more detailed prompt for
the distribution of the article. Included is the capability to list
all of the valid distributions. Plus, 2.10.2 has a number of bug fixes
and enhancements. 2.10.2 was posted to net.sources a few weeks ago.
Many sites have it archived for uucp transfer. I believe that
rick@seismo will be posting it again in the next week or so, along with
a few minor bug fixes to the original release. Don't let it get past
you without making a copy.
--
Off the Wall of Gene Spafford
The Clouds Project, School of ICS, Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332
CSNet: Spaf @ GATech ARPA: Spaf%GATech.CSNet @ CSNet-Relay.ARPA
uucp: ...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-sally}!gatech!spafbob@islenet.UUCP (Robert P. Cunningham) (10/09/84)
>Please name the group na.forsale (North America), as opposed to usa.forsale. > >Cheers, >Jan Gray (jsgray@watmath.UUCP) University of Waterloo (519) 885-1211 x3870 It makes more sense to me to have 'forsale' newsgroups set up local to an individual state or city. 'net.forsale' will simply not be useful for overseas sites. If anyone out there is contemplating a 'na.forsale' vs. 'usa.forsale', from a local point of view I'd recommend 'na.forsale'. You see, out here we're technically 'usa' but not 'na'...and for the first time I see this as an advantage. -- Bob Cunningham ..{dual,ihnp4,vortex}!islenet!bob Honolulu, Hawaii
smh@mit-eddie.UUCP (Steven M. Haflich) (10/09/84)
I heartily endorse any attempt to coerce posters to specify distribution. However, it would do well to remember just how naive some users can be, and how often they will simply ignore something they don't understand. "Golly! What does `distribution' mean?" Explain everything as if the explainee knows absolutely nothing! I suggest that any prompt requesting the "distribution" for an article should instead request the "appropriate geographical distribution". Also, it might be necessary for some sites to interpret the meaning of seemingly-obvious distributions. Example: From my site I can distribute to "ne", "usa", "na", and "worldwide". A beginner could easily miss what the first and third mean, let alone whether something like "local" refers to the machine, cluster, university, or city.
spaf@gatech.UUCP (Gene Spafford) (10/11/84)
News version 2.10.2 not only has a longer prompt for the "distribution"
field, but if the administrator sets it up right, there is also
a small file which lists every distribution and explains what it
involves.
Anybody running old news is losing out.
--
Off the Wall of Gene Spafford
The Clouds Project, School of ICS, Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332
CSNet: Spaf @ GATech ARPA: Spaf%GATech.CSNet @ CSNet-Relay.ARPA
uucp: ...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-sally}!gatech!spaf