mrs@netcom.COM (Morgan Schweers) (04/17/91)
Some time ago kdq@demott.com (Kevin D. Quitt) happily mumbled: >In article <1991Apr15.155341.4999@athena.mit.edu> maurik@irene.mit.edu writes: >> >>[good comments on the horrendous price of editors, >> and a recommendation on two free ones.] >> > > They also have about 1% of the features available on real editors >(e.g. Epsilon or Brief). It would take as much time to bring Freemacs >up to what Epsilon can do as it would to write Epsilon from scratch. >Who has the time? I certainly don't - I'm too busy using my editor >on real programs. > Prove it. Tell me *WHAT* Epsilon or Brief do that MicroEMACS or Freemacs don't? The obvious answer (at least for Freemacs) is the 64K limit. I (and many others) are working on this. This is one of the advantages of having the source code available. However, I'm a normal programmer (from what I can see) in that I keep my code in seperate modules. None of my modules are over 64K, and I like it that way. I find it a neat project to work on cracking the supposed '64K' barrier. Freemacs is an editor for people who enjoy their programming, not people who just want to do their job and go home. I consider modifying my editor for special features (which I bet I couldn't do under Epsilon or Brief) to be part of my job. It not only makes my life easier, but it makes anyone who comes after me's life easier. And after all, that's what most of programming is. Making tools to make making tools easier. Oh, and as a final note, I'd *WRITE* my own blasted editor before paying $200+ for someone else's. > >-- > _ >Kevin D. Quitt demott!kdq kdq@demott.com >DeMott Electronics Co. 14707 Keswick St. Van Nuys, CA 91405-1266 >VOICE (818) 988-4975 FAX (818) 997-1190 MODEM (818) 997-4496 PEP last > > 96.37% of all statistics are made up. -- Morgan Schweers +---- I'm looking for a copy of Turbo Pascal 3.x. If anyone has it, I'd appreciate hearing from them. (IMHO, it was the last good version of Pascal they made. They've all been bloated since.) -- mrs@netcom.com ----+
kdq@demott.com (Kevin D. Quitt) (04/18/91)
In article <1991Apr17.044951.7951@netcom.COM> mrs@netcom.COM (Morgan Schweers) writes: > > Freemacs is an editor for people who enjoy their programming, not >people who just want to do their job and go home. I greatly enjoy my programming. Having tools that aren't broken makes it even easier to do so. > I consider modifying >my editor for special features (which I bet I couldn't do under Epsilon >or Brief) to be part of my job. I also consider tweaking my tools to be part of my job - but not fixing them. And, by the way, you lose that bet. > It not only makes my life easier, but >it makes anyone who comes after me's life easier. And after all, that's >what most of programming is. Making tools to make making tools easier. > > Oh, and as a final note, I'd *WRITE* my own blasted editor before >paying $200+ for someone else's. $200 covers 4 hours of my time. Can bring freemacs up to epsilon or brief in that amount of time? -- _ Kevin D. Quitt demott!kdq kdq@demott.com DeMott Electronics Co. 14707 Keswick St. Van Nuys, CA 91405-1266 VOICE (818) 988-4975 FAX (818) 997-1190 MODEM (818) 997-4496 PEP last 96.37% of all statistics are made up.
gmurray@ibmpcug.co.uk (G Murray) (04/19/91)
I can't comment on Epsilon, but the main problem that I have noted with both Brief and EMACS is that they can't handle Nulls. Brief seems to manage every other possible byte value in a file except for 0x00. Graham Murray -- Automatic Disclaimer: The views expressed above are those of the author alone and may not represent the views of the IBM PC User Group. --
mrs@netcom.COM (Morgan Schweers) (04/19/91)
Some time ago kdq@demott.com (Kevin D. Quitt) happily mumbled: >In article <1991Apr17.044951.7951@netcom.COM> mrs@netcom.COM (Morgan Schweers) writes: >> >> Freemacs is an editor for people who enjoy their programming, not >>people who just want to do their job and go home. > > I greatly enjoy my programming. Having tools that aren't broken makes >it even easier to do so. Greetings, I'm not interested in vague accusations against the program. I happen to know that it's not broken. If you have a serious problem with it, send it to me. Either I'll fix it, or someone else will. This sort of thing is doable when one has the source code. > >> I consider modifying >>my editor for special features (which I bet I couldn't do under Epsilon >>or Brief) to be part of my job. > > I also consider tweaking my tools to be part of my job - but not >fixing them. And, by the way, you lose that bet. I strongly doubt I would lose that bet. The things I do are on the level of tweaking the source code. Adding new primitives to the language, giving it entirely new features, etc. Do you have the source code to Epsilon or Brief? Could you get it? Assuming Epsilon (or Brief) saves the original screen, what would it take for you to display that screen WITHOUT spawning out of the program? I don't want to get into a feature war, frankly, though I realize that I might be starting one. Let's not bother. If you have a problem with the program (other than the ones I mentioned in my other post) feel free to drop me a line. > >> It not only makes my life easier, but >>it makes anyone who comes after me's life easier. And after all, that's >>what most of programming is. Making tools to make making tools easier. >> >> Oh, and as a final note, I'd *WRITE* my own blasted editor before >>paying $200+ for someone else's. > > $200 covers 4 hours of my time. Can bring freemacs up to epsilon >or brief in that amount of time? Sorry buddy, I program for the enjoyment of it. If you're so retentive to count every cent of time you spend doing something, perhaps you're in the wrong field. This is why I put up my global request for problems with Freemacs. I'm tired of hearing vague accusations by folks like you. Give me hard facts, and I'll work on them. I'll work on them for free, too. Because I consider it *FUN* to do this sort of thing. Programming is my avocation as well as my vocation. It's something I do for pleasure. Like many other programmers, I think, I like to produce things that others like. That's my goal. Your goal is to make money. We're seriously coming at this from two different angles. Perhaps this conversations should die. It's one of those psuedo-religious issues. When you get to the point where you can identify a major gap between programmers like this one, it's best to stop the arguing. Nothing more is likely to get done. Feel free to drop me a line suggesting improvements though. Bug reports go to freemacs@sun.soe.clarkson.edu, and cc:'em to me if you'd like. >-- >Kevin D. Quitt demott!kdq kdq@demott.com >DeMott Electronics Co. 14707 Keswick St. Van Nuys, CA 91405-1266 >VOICE (818) 988-4975 FAX (818) 997-1190 MODEM (818) 997-4496 PEP last -- Morgan Schweers +---- #include <stdisclaimer.h> --> It's all in your mind. #include "mandatory_quote.h" --> Good food, good code, good sex. What else #define FLAMES /dev/null does a body need? -- mrs@netcom.com ----+
crazydud@visual (04/20/91)
mrs@netcom.COM (Morgan Schweers) writes: > Some time ago kdq@demott.com (Kevin D. Quitt) happily mumbled: > >In article <1991Apr15.155341.4999@athena.mit.edu> maurik@irene.mit.edu write > >> > >>[good comments on the horrendous price of editors, > >> and a recommendation on two free ones.] > >> > > > > They also have about 1% of the features available on real editors > >(e.g. Epsilon or Brief). It would take as much time to bring Freemacs > >up to what Epsilon can do as it would to write Epsilon from scratch. > >Who has the time? I certainly don't - I'm too busy using my editor > >on real programs. > > > Prove it. Tell me *WHAT* Epsilon or Brief do that MicroEMACS or > Freemacs don't? > > The obvious answer (at least for Freemacs) is the 64K limit. I > (and many others) are working on this. This is one of the advantages > of having the source code available. However, I'm a normal programmer > (from what I can see) in that I keep my code in seperate modules. > None of my modules are over 64K, and I like it that way. I find it a > neat project to work on cracking the supposed '64K' barrier. > > Freemacs is an editor for people who enjoy their programming, not > people who just want to do their job and go home. I consider modifying > my editor for special features (which I bet I couldn't do under Epsilon > or Brief) to be part of my job. It not only makes my life easier, but > it makes anyone who comes after me's life easier. And after all, that's > what most of programming is. Making tools to make making tools easier. > > Oh, and as a final note, I'd *WRITE* my own blasted editor before > paying $200+ for someone else's. > > > > >-- > > _ > >Kevin D. Quitt demott!kdq kdq@demott.com > >DeMott Electronics Co. 14707 Keswick St. Van Nuys, CA 91405-1266 > >VOICE (818) 988-4975 FAX (818) 997-1190 MODEM (818) 997-4496 PEP last > > > > 96.37% of all statistics are made up. > > -- Morgan Schweers > +---- > I'm looking for a copy of Turbo Pascal 3.x. If anyone has it, I'd > appreciate hearing from them. (IMHO, it was the last good version of > Pascal they made. They've all been bloated since.) -- mrs@netcom.com > ----+ No kidding. It would be a simple thing to write a quick editor in assembler. Not only would it be faster than Brief (doubt it'd beat Norton's Editor which I use), you would know exactly what was going on! CrazyDud@Visual
ralf+@cs.cmu.edu (Ralf Brown) (04/21/91)
In article <1991Apr18.204216.6994@ibmpcug.co.uk> gmurray@ibmpcug.co.uk (G Murray) writes: } I can't comment on Epsilon, but the main problem that I have noted with }both Brief and EMACS is that they can't handle Nulls. Brief seems to manage }every other possible byte value in a file except for 0x00. Epsilon has absolutely no trouble with any character; just type ^Q^@ for 0x00. -- {backbone}!cs.cmu.edu!ralf ARPA: RALF@CS.CMU.EDU FIDO: Ralf Brown 1:129/3.1 BITnet: RALF%CS.CMU.EDU@CMUCCVMA AT&Tnet: (412)268-3053 (school) FAX: ask DISCLAIMER? Did | It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's I claim something?| what we know that ain't so. --Will Rogers
nelson@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Russ Nelson) (04/23/91)
In article <1991Apr18.204216.6994@ibmpcug.co.uk> gmurray@ibmpcug.co.uk (G Murray) writes:
I can't comment on Epsilon, but the main problem that I have noted with
both Brief and EMACS is that they can't handle Nulls.
Note that the EMACS Graham is talking about is not Freemacs. Freemacs
doesn't engage in gratuitious file munging (like line limits and character
set limits). Freemacs can edit binary files.
--
--russ <nelson@clutx.clarkson.edu> I'm proud to be a humble Quaker.
It's better to get mugged than to live a life of fear -- Freeman Dyson
I joined the League for Programming Freedom, and I hope you'll join too.