jfw@mit-eddie.UUCP (John Woods) (12/10/84)
> The country's media hacker fever seems on the rise again. I > would like to contribute to the clarity of the debate by telling > you about a "real" hacker I know. > My neighbour's son is a 15 years old hi-school kid. He is in the > football and baseball teams, and he is your typical > "all-american-good-boy" who makes a few bucks delivering the > Sunday papers, cutting the neighbours'grass or shoveling their > snow. Last Xmas, he got two gifts: a PC and an automobile tool > kit. He started then programming his PC, connecting himself to > various electronic boards and nets,...and became a hacker. At > the same time he also started messing around his mom's car, > and learned quiet a bit about engines, transmissions, and so on. > I trust his mechanical skills enough now, to hire him to change > my oil and tune up my engine, saving myself quiet a few dollars. As a Real Hacker (before it became popular), I'd like to analyze this. Did he become a "hacker" by learning to program and writing some complex computer systems that do interesting and/or amusing things? Or did he become a ``hacker'' by copying down a rote procedure for breaking into a computer system from a BBS? If someone repairs my car correctly and cheaply, especially when it looks hopeless, then I will accord them my highest honor and respect. If I find someone trying to break into my car, to damage it or to steal it, I will come after them with a tire iron and blood in my eyes. See the difference? If this Boy Wonder Next Door is trying to write the Great American Editor using his hand-assembled Ada(TM) compiler, more power to him, and I'd like to meet him. If he's trying to find out what my credit card numbers might be, I'd like to meet him -- me and my tire iron. -- John Woods, Charles River Data Systems decvax!frog!john, mit-eddie!jfw, JFW%mit-ccc@MIT-XX When your puppy goes off in another room, is it because of the explosive charge?
jlg@lanl.ARPA (12/10/84)
> The country's media hacker fever seems on the rise again. I > would like to contribute to the clarity of the debate by telling > you about a "real" hacker I know. > [...] He started then programming his PC, connecting himself to > various electronic boards and nets,...and became a hacker. > [...] There is no reason why I should not trust his "computerese" to > hire him to work on some of my tedious computer problems, > avoiding a few over-time evening hours at work, and actually, > saving my company a lot of dollars. > Were I to label him a "computer vandal", I might as well label > him a car vandal. Nobody is complaining about car vandals, not > even New-York insurance companies. Why should the media start or > rekindle a witch hunt on hackers? I am sure they could do much > better service to the public. No one is complaining about 'hackers' that connect to nets and bboards and spend lots of time programming their PCs. The complaint is aimed at the group of kids that spent their time trying to gain unauthorized access to machines that they have no business on. There have been instances of unauthorized access to hospital machines and other computers which contain VERY sensitive data as well as being used as real time controllers for life-support devices for patients. Unauthorized access to these machines are not only illegal, but life-threatening as well. And what about those TRW credit monitoring computers that were compromised? Maybe YOU want your young neighbor putting junk into your credit records, I don't. I still can't figure out why any legitimate computer user would use the term 'hacker' to describe himself (herself). 'Hacker' has ALWAYS been a derogatory term in the computer industry; refering, as it does, to a computer trickster who is not interested in learning the discipline or techniques required to program professionally.
wrs@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Walter Smith) (12/11/84)
>From lanl!jlg : >I still can't figure out why any legitimate computer user would use the >term 'hacker' to describe himself (herself). 'Hacker' has ALWAYS been >a derogatory term in the computer industry; refering, as it does, to >a computer trickster who is not interested in learning the discipline >or techniques required to program professionally. Which computer industry are you in? Definitions of "hacker" vary so widely that the word is completely useless for talking between environments (the CMU CS department and Chase Manhattan Bank do not use the same definition, for example). Apparently the definition in Stanford/MIT's jargon file is very different from the definition in lanl!jlg's mind. Someone who is proud to call him/herself a hacker most likely comes from an environment where the word has positive connotations. Perhaps it would be a good idea to give the definition of "hacker" one is using before putting the word in a message, to avoid confusion. This applies to Newsweek articles as well. -- ---------- uucp: ...!seismo!cmu-cs-k!wrs arpa: wrs@cmu-cs-k.ARPA usps: Box 874; 5115 Margaret Morrison St.; Pittsburgh, PA 15213
keves@sdcc3.UUCP (Brian Keves) (12/12/84)
> The country's media hacker fever seems on the rise again.
I just viewed the CBS NightWatch News. There was an interview with
an FBI man and an "ex-phreap". They discussed the different crimes
being committed by "hackers" and even went as far as to say that
there is a difference between the hardened criminal who is using
computers for credit card crime and the such, and the teenager who
is just "curious". But in no way did they make it clear that not all
hackers are criminals. I am afraid that we who are curious, but over
the age of puberty had better made a different name to identify
ourselves.
Brian Keves
--
"A is A" - Ayn Rand
Name: Brian Keves USnail: UCSD Computer Center
Usenet: ...!sdcsvax!sdcc3!keves C-010
...!sdcsvax!sdcattb!za62 La Jolla, Ca. 92093robert@gitpyr.UUCP (Robert Viduya) (12/13/84)
>< > > I still can't figure out why any legitimate computer user would use the > term 'hacker' to describe himself (herself). 'Hacker' has ALWAYS been > a derogatory term in the computer industry; refering, as it does, to > a computer trickster who is not interested in learning the discipline > or techniques required to program professionally. > I disagree. The word 'Hacker' has not always been a derogatory term. When I first learned the word, it meant someone who spent most of his time on a computer just for the hell of it. It was not a derogatory term. That was the definition I learned and it's the definition I'll stick by. I consider myself to be a hacker, and I assure you that I have been, and currently am, a legitimate computer user. As for learning the discipline and techniques required to program prof- essionally, I can honestly say that I've learned more of both of them from my own work than from any class I've attended. I've been coding now for about 4 years (a babe in the woods compared to some people out there) and I can look back at the programs I've written over those 4 years and see how my programming style has changed. I've learned the necessity of clean, well-structured and well-commented code from de- buging both my own and other people's code. robert -- Robert Viduya Office of Computing Services Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta GA 30332 Phone: (404) 894-4669 ...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,masscomp,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!robert ...!{rlgvax,sb1,uf-cgrl,unmvax,ut-sally}!gatech!gitpyr!robert
david@randvax.UUCP (David Shlapak) (12/13/84)
> The country's media hacker fever seems on the rise again. I > would like to contribute to the clarity of the debate by telling > you about a "real" hacker I know. > My neighbour's son is a 15 years old hi-school kid. He is in the > football and baseball teams, and he is your typical > "all-american-good-boy" who makes a few bucks delivering the > Sunday papers, cutting the neighbours'grass or shoveling their > snow. Last Xmas, he got two gifts: a PC and an automobile tool > kit. He started then programming his PC, connecting himself to > various electronic boards and nets,...and became a hacker. At > the same time he also started messing around his mom's car, > and learned quiet a bit about engines, transmissions, and so on. > I trust his mechanical skills enough now, to hire him to change > my oil and tune up my engine, saving myself quiet a few dollars. > There is no reason why I should not trust his "computerese" to > hire him to work on some of my tedious computer problems, > avoiding a few over-time evening hours at work, and actually, > saving my company a lot of dollars. > Were I to label him a "computer vandal", I might as well label > him a car vandal. Nobody is complaining about car vandals, not > even New-York insurance companies. Why should the media start or > rekindle a witch hunt on hackers? I am sure they could do much > better service to the public. I think there's a pretty clear difference between some kid messing with his mother's car (she, after all, knows who he is and can beat the shit out of him if she doesn't approve) and some stranger f**king around with her TRW! "Hacking" of that sort IS A CRIME, and should be punished. I worked long and hard to attain the sort of financial responsibility I enjoy today, and the thought of some punk taking advantage of my efforts to his own benefit fills me with the urge to kill... This is not a "witch-hunt." These people are irresponsible jerks, and they're doing REAL damage to REAL people, and I'm really sick of self-serving apologia like the above. Computer crime is real, it's dangerous, and when the creeps who perpetrate it are caught, they should be punished. --- das
jpm@bnl.UUCP (John McNamee) (12/13/84)
> I still can't figure out why any legitimate computer user would use the > term 'hacker' to describe himself (herself). 'Hacker' has ALWAYS been > a derogatory term in the computer industry; refering, as it does, to > a computer trickster who is not interested in learning the discipline > or techniques required to program professionally. Maybe `Hacker' has always been derogatory where you are, but its quite different where I've been. Maybe you define `professional programming techniques' as the ability to work well in large groups. Hackers are too creative for that, and they dont work well in that environment. The hackers get called in (at great expense) when the large group has screwed the project up and it all needs to be rewritten. -- John McNamee ..!decvax!philabs!sbcs!bnl!jpm jpm@Bnl.Arpa
sean@ukma.UUCP (Sean Casey) (12/15/84)
We are just going to have to face the fact that hacker stands for a different thing now than it did 5 years ago. Maybe it hasn't changed for you, but it has for most of the world. Accept it and maybe try to coin a new term. Sean Casey
isis@utzoo.UUCP (n) (12/16/84)
Most words in the English language have more than one meaning! Hacker will have to have the meaning appropriate to those that are using the word, rather than a assumed meaning when used. The context will bear on the understanding and the undertaking of the meaning. (period) Bill (allegra!utzoo!isis) (416) 964-1983 -- Does a "smoker's hack" mean a pipe malcontent?
ron@brl-tgr.ARPA (Ron Natalie <ron>) (12/17/84)
> "Hacking" of that sort IS A CRIME, and should be punished. I worked long > and hard to attain the sort of financial responsibility I enjoy today, and > the thought of some punk taking advantage of my efforts to his own benefit > fills me with the urge to kill... > > This is not a "witch-hunt." These people are irresponsible jerks, and they're > doing REAL damage to REAL people, and I'm really sick of self-serving apologia > like the above. Computer crime is real, it's dangerous, and when the > creeps who perpetrate it are caught, they should be punished. > > --- das STOP STOP STOP STOP Hacking is not a crime! Nowhere in the original messages did it say that the young hacker was doing anything he shouldn't do. Learning all kinds of obscure things about computers, connecting to public bulletin boards, hanging out with other hackers, is not a crime. -Ron
rmf@petfe.UUCP (Ralph M. Friedman) (12/17/84)
I think we are begging the question by arguing over the definition of the word hacker. People who break into files that are made of paper and stored in steel cabinets on other people's property are generally called thieves. I believe that that appellation applies equally to those who break into electronic files that are other people's property. Ralph M. Friedman
dave@soph.UUCP (Dave Brownell) (12/21/84)
Pardon my eyes, but did I not see both TIME magazine and the Boston Globe using the word "hacker" in the correct sense within the last month? As I recall, the Globe even contrasted "hackers" with "crackers". There is yet hope! The Great Uneducated Masses can still learn!! -- Dave Brownell EnMasse Computer Corporation Acton, Mass. 01720
holmes@dalcs.UUCP (Ray Holmes) (12/21/84)
In short, A "hacker" is someone who debugs someone else's code. Ray