tmb@wheaties.ai.mit.edu (Thomas M. Breuel) (02/04/90)
I have just bought a Toshiba T1000 and travelled with it to Europe. American security check-ins at airports seem to be satisfied if the computer works (i.e., if you can turn it on), but in Germany, they insisted that I run the computer through the X-ray machine. They assured me that it was completely harmless and that they ran "hundreds" of laptops through the machine daily. [Airport security personnel was also extremely rude there. They were amused and unconcerned when I complained that they put my pack of floppy disks, which contained a month's worth of work, on top of an X-ray machine (I was concerned about stray magnetic fields).] Unfortunately, right after running it through the machine, the disk controller stopped working. Now, I would like to know: * what do other people do with their laptops when they travel? * has anyone had similar problems? * what is the photon flux and the energy used in modern airport X-ray machines? Do you know whether this is sufficient to erase EPROMS, alter static RAM data, damage chips? * what are the magnetic fields inside the airport X-ray machines? * what about the new neutron-activation devices? Thanks, Thomas.
farber@linc.cis.upenn.edu (David Farber) (02/05/90)
I had my T1000 zapped at the airport. It showed up as a keybaord failure. I called Toshiba in Calif and they said send it. They installed a new chip and changed a cardbaord guard sheet to one that did not act as a capacitor. Mine was two years old Dave David Farber; Prof. of CIS and EE, U of Penn, Philadelphia, PA 19104-6389 Tele: 215-898-9508(off); 215-274-8292 (home); FAX: 215-898-0587; Cellular: 302-740- 1198 "The fundamental principle of science, the definition almost, is this: the sole test of the validity of any idea is experiment." -- R. P. Feynman
skaggs@nsslsun.gcn.uoknor.edu (Gary Skaggs) (02/05/90)
With only one exception, that being the commuter concourse at Boston Logan,
I've never had my briefcase inspected. In it I carry, a Tandy Model 100
(some would argue that it is not a 'laptop'), several handheld amateur
radios, a hand held scanner, and all the chargers, battery packs, and
appurtenances for such hardware.
The comment at Logan was choice, however. The X-ray technician said to the
inspector, "You gotta take a look at this one!" More amazement than anything
else.
______________________________________________________________________________
Gary Skaggs - WB5ULK Internet: skaggs@nssl.gcn.uoknor.edu
National Severe Storms Laboratory Physical: turn left at the barking dog
(The Tornado People)
"If it's dead, it's Biology. If it stinks, it's Chemistry.
If it's magic, it's Physics. But, if it's voodoo, it's Meteorology!"
"When the government tells me what to say, I'll sign it as such!"
______________________________________________________________________________wayne@csri.toronto.edu (Wayne Hayes) (02/06/90)
In article <6325@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu> tmb@wheaties.ai.mit.edu (Thomas M. Breuel) writes: >... in Germany, they >insisted that I run the computer through the X-ray machine. They >assured me that it was completely harmless and that they ran >"hundreds" of laptops through the machine daily. > >[Airport security personnel was also extremely rude there. They were amused >and unconcerned when I complained that they put my pack of floppy disks, >which contained a month's worth of work, on top of an X-ray machine >(I was concerned about stray magnetic fields).] > >Unfortunately, right after running it through the machine, the disk >controller stopped working. I'm not at all familiar with airport procedures and the legalities involved. Obviously airport security should come first, but if this happened to me I'd be pretty pissed off. Is there any kind of recourse available to the flier if say, his $17,000 SPARCSTATION laptop was zapped at the airport by the machine? Can you sue / complain to anybody? What are your chances of getting some compensation? On the other hand, like I said, obviously airport security comes first. I would much rather have my laptop zapped than get blown out of the sky by the guy behind me with the 6 kilos of high explosives hidden in his HP28C. From a technical standpoint, what are the chances of manufactures eventually taking things like this into consideration and somehow sheilding vulnerable parts? And could this sheilding generate further security holes / complications? Or is this just too small an issue? -- The 'C' programming language is, at worst, the second best language for any given application. Usually, however, it is the best. -- anon Wayne Hayes INTERNET: wayne@csri.toronto.edu CompuServe: 72401,3525
jgd@rsiatl.UUCP (John G. De Armond) (02/06/90)
tmb@wheaties.ai.mit.edu (Thomas M. Breuel) writes: >* what is the photon flux and the energy used in modern airport > X-ray machines? Do you know whether this is sufficient to erase > EPROMS, alter static RAM data, damage chips? >* what are the magnetic fields inside the airport X-ray machines? >* what about the new neutron-activation devices? I think your controller problem was simply coincidence. I've had the opportunity to experiment a bit with radiation and memory. I had the opportunity to get a large number of one-time-programmable EPROMS (27xxx series eproms in plastic packs with no windows) that had been pulled in an upgrade. Being of nuclear persuasion, I decided that X-rays might erase the chips. To test this theory, I taped a chip to the exit window of a 30kvp, 50 ma tube and connected the chip electrically to an eprom programmer so as to be able to detect when the first bits changes. (30 kev is near an absorption line of silicon and so should have enhanced the process.) After 48 hours of continous exposure amounting to several kiloRADs, the result was ..... Not a bit changed. The EPROM was a good as the day it was programmed. I tried another experiment involving heating the chip while irradiating it (thinking that increased electron mobility might help.). Same result. Summary: These suckers are really tough. Another experiment involved zapping some low-level dosimeters in an X-ray machine in order to see what kind of exposure is involved. I was interested in looking at this from an occupational exposure perspective - in other words, how did the dose relate to occupational exposure? The result was that NO detectable radiation was recorded. Summary: When they say microdose, they mean it. Summary2: Don't worry about it. Magnetic fields are another matter. I have not had an opportunity to examine the neutron activation detectors, though I suspect that any damage will be from magnetic fields. If they use an isotopic neutron source, the magnetic fields should be zilch. An accelerator-based source, on the other hand, usually entails some hefty magnetics. I carry media on my person because of all the OTHER things that happen to luggage and not because of radiation hazards. John -- John De Armond, WD4OQC | We can no more blame our loss of freedom on congress- Radiation Systems, Inc. | men than we can prostitution on pimps. Both simply Atlanta, Ga | provide broker services for their customers. emory!rsiatl!jgd | - Dr. W Williams | **I am the NRA**
johnr@praxis.co.uk (John Richards) (02/07/90)
In article <6325@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu> tmb@wheaties.ai.mit.edu (Thomas M. Breuel) writes: >I have just bought a Toshiba T1000 and travelled with it to Europe. >American security check-ins at airports seem to be satisfied if the >computer works (i.e., if you can turn it on), but in Germany, they >insisted that I run the computer through the X-ray machine. They >assured me that it was completely harmless and that they ran >"hundreds" of laptops through the machine daily. > >* what do other people do with their laptops when they travel? I have a Z88 which sits in my briefcase and is put through the X-ray machine. The briefcase is always taken off and examined, and yes, they just want to make sure the Z88 works by getting me to turn it on. Never had any detectable damage, but of course there are no discs in a Z88, just chips. I have put mag tapes through with no damage yet. On another tack, someone in this newsgroup suggested that machines had to have FCC clearance to be used on a plane or they could be confiscated (! - sounds extreme when they could just ask you to stop using it). He/she said his/her Z88 had an FCC clearance sticker on it. I've used my Z88 on planes with never a complaint but there is no FCC sticker. Should I be worried? John Richards
barr@frog.UUCP (Chris Barr) (02/08/90)
> in Germany, they > insisted that I run the computer through the X-ray machine. I've heard that German airport X-rays and magnetic field sensors are more dangerous to film and electronics than other airports'. > and unconcerned when I complained that they put my pack of floppy disks, > which contained a month's worth of work, on top of an X-ray machine Camera stores sell lead-lined(?) bags to protect high-speed film. They're reasonably large & would hold floppies, perhaps T1000-size laptops. - Chris Barr
midkiff@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu (Sam Midkiff) (02/08/90)
In article <4892@newton.praxis.co.uk> johnr@praxis.co.uk (John Richards) writes: > >On another tack, someone in this newsgroup suggested that machines had to >have FCC clearance to be used on a plane or they could be confiscated (! - >sounds extreme when they could just ask you to stop using it). He/she >said his/her Z88 had an FCC clearance sticker on it. I've used my Z88 on >planes with never a complaint but there is no FCC sticker. Should I be >worried? > John Richards It's always dangerous to interpret FAR's, but then if I make an error, it will prompt someone with more info to answer. The pilot in command of an aircraft has a lot of power, not unlike the captain of a ship. This power includes the right to decide if a particular piece of equipment, be it laptop or walkman, poses a danger to the flight by interfering with communications (or anything else for that matter.) If he thinks it does, then he can have it taken from you (confiscated) for the duration of the flight. I can't see how permanent confiscation would be allowed since it doesn't pose a danger to his flight once on the ground. Note that having an FCC sticker doesn't require the pilot to allow you to use a piece of equipment. The FCC sticker does not say that a laptop will not interfere with radio communications on any airplane under any conditions. Perhaps an FAA sticker might, but they don't exist. Most pilots have better things to do with their time than antagonize passengers, however, and will probably assume that anything that meets the FCC requirements is safe. In any case, it is the pilot's decision, and I have no doubt that if he noticed interference on communication or navigation instruments that he would instruct the stewards to begin taking the passenger's laptops, etc. Finally, if you don't cooperate with a pilot, or a steward acting for the pilot, you might very well find yourself under arrest after the plane lands at the nearest convenient airport. If you want to argue, you are advised to do it on the ground. Sam Midkiff midkiff@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu
wagner@utoday.UUCP (wagner) (02/09/90)
In article <4892@newton.praxis.co.uk> johnr@praxis.co.uk (John Richards) writes: > >On another tack, someone in this newsgroup suggested that machines had to >have FCC clearance to be used on a plane or they could be confiscated (! - >sounds extreme when they could just ask you to stop using it). He/she >said his/her Z88 had an FCC clearance sticker on it. I've used my Z88 on >planes with never a complaint but there is no FCC sticker. Should I be >worried? At last! A thread on a comp.* newsgroup which I can intelligently respond to! I ask the stewardess before using my T1200 on the plane. She says yes, then I do it, she says no, then I don't. Although I like giving big corporations a hard time about possibly petty rules, I'll forego that pleasure when I'm thousands of feet above the ground with my life dependent on the proper functioning of a machine I know very little about. But I try not to use it in the plane, as a courtesy to my neighbors. I know I might find it annoying to be sitting six hours on a flight from NY to San Francisco next to some bozo going clickety-clickety-clickety on a keyboard the whole way. Sorry if I drift from the tech nature of this group. We now return to our regularly scheduled programming.... -- Mitch Voice: (516) 562-5758 uunet!wagner@utoday.UUCP or ...!wagner@utoday.uu.net These opinions are mine and are my responsibility, not my employers' or anyone else's.
silvert@cs.dal.ca (Bill Silvert) (02/10/90)
In article <4892@newton.praxis.co.uk> johnr@praxis.co.uk (John Richards) writes: >On another tack, someone in this newsgroup suggested that machines had to >have FCC clearance to be used on a plane or they could be confiscated (! - >sounds extreme when they could just ask you to stop using it). He/she >said his/her Z88 had an FCC clearance sticker on it. I've used my Z88 on >planes with never a complaint but there is no FCC sticker. Should I be >worried? Wow, I hate to think of the stink that would go up if Air Canada tried to confiscate my laptop because it didn't have a sticker from a US agency (that is what the FCC is, right?). I know that Canada has pretty strict regulations, and machines like the Tandy 1100FD cannot be sold up here, but I have never heard of this kind of draconian enforcement. -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Division. Bedford Institute of Oceanography, Dartmouth, NS, Canada B2Y 4A2 UUCP: ...!{uunet,watmath}!dalcs!biomel!bill Internet: bill%biomel@cs.dal.CA BITNET: bill%biomel%dalcs@dalac
jackson@adobe.COM (Curtis Jackson) (02/10/90)
In article <6325@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu> tmb@wheaties.ai.mit.edu (Thomas M. Breuel) writes: }Unfortunately, right after running it through the machine, the disk }controller stopped working. Toshiba assured me over the phone some time ago that I could run my T3100 through any X-ray machine without damaging any internals including hard disk data, but they did not recommend putting floppy disks through the machine (neither do I)! My boss had the machine before me, and over about two years it has been on the road 12-16 weeks a year and never shown a problem. -- Curtis Jackson @ Adobe Systems in Mountain View, CA (415-962-4905) Internet: jackson@adobe.com uucp: ...!{apple|decwrl|sun}!adobe!jackson
strange@dukeac.UUCP (Mike Scher) (02/12/90)
I use an old GRiDcase 3 and have never allowed the unit itself to be
x-rayed for fear of damaging not the internal electronics, but the EPROMs
that hold DOS and other software. My floppy disks, however, have been x-rayed,
much to my horror on the occasion. They remained errorless, which prompted
me to look into matters. X-rays apparently will do nothing to mess up
electronics or magnetic fields in computer equipment/disks. The magnetic
fields emitted by x-ray machines, METAL-DETECTORS, and the like, however,
may indeed damage sensitive electronics and are likely to affect the magnetic
fields on disks.
Most airports, including LA and Newark, will allow hand inspection of
computers for both domestic and EEC flights. They may want to x-ray your
computer carrying bag, so be sure to keep your disks outside, or to take them
out (visibly) when your machine is taken to be hand inspected. I always hold
up the case and tell the person operating the x-ray machine (not the metal
detector) that I want the bag hand inspected. They usually ask if it's a
computer. All they EVER want to see is whether it boots successfully.
From doubts come questions;
from questions, answers;
from answers, enlightenment:
Doubt and be enlightened.
-Mike Scher
USMail: P.O.Box 9896DS, Durham, NC 27706 | INTERNET: strange@dukeac.ac.duke.edu
Last ditch: ...!{rutgers.edu,decvax,philabs}!mcnc!ecsgate!dukeac!strangesilvert@cs.dal.ca (Bill Silvert) (02/12/90)
In article <11910@frog.UUCP> barr@frog.UUCP (Chris Barr) writes: >> and unconcerned when I complained that they put my pack of floppy disks, >> which contained a month's worth of work, on top of an X-ray machine > >Camera stores sell lead-lined(?) bags to protect high-speed film. >They're reasonably large & would hold floppies, perhaps T1000-size laptops. Lead will not shield disks from magnetic fields. You need a more conductive material. I should think that aluminum foil might suffice. -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Division. Bedford Institute of Oceanography, Dartmouth, NS, Canada B2Y 4A2 UUCP: ...!{uunet,watmath}!dalcs!biomel!bill Internet: bill%biomel@cs.dal.CA BITNET: bill%biomel%dalcs@dalac
hrs1@cbnewsi.ATT.COM (herman.r.silbiger) (02/13/90)
My laptop must have been xrayed a hundred times by now, and the only time I lose data is due to errors on my part. In the USA domestically, I have never been asked to show the machine. Abroad, they routinely ask you to turn it on and make it work, so make sure your batteries are charged. By the way, they also ask to see if your camera works. Usually they want to take a picture of you, and point the camera straight at you. Herman Silbiger
erc@khijol.UUCP (Ed Carp, aka Mr. Ed the talking horse...) (02/14/90)
Yes, John, very interesting post, but were the EPROMS themselves exhibiting any sign of secondary radiation? I know this sort of thing doesn't usually happen with electron bombardment (at least I don't *think* it does), but I'd be interested in hearing a followup. -- Ed Carp N7EKG/5 (28.3-28.5) uunet!cs.utexas.edu!khijol!erc Austin, Texas (512) 832-5884 "Good tea. Nice house." - Worf Opinions expressed are mine. Copyright 1990 Edwin R. Carp. All Rights Reserved.