[comp.unix.i386] Summary of rfc chat systems

erict@flatline.UUCP (J. Eric Townsend) (07/02/89)

As promised, here's the summary info.  There's a wide variety of
opinions on what will work and what won't, so it seems...

===========================================================================
From: uunet!apple.com!desnoyer (Peter Desnoyers)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1989 11:02:20 PDT

Two thoughts on the subject -

  (1) - A straight terminal interface to a BBS is outdated. You probably
     want some protocol that allows at least multiple channels and at best
     error correction. (You could probably pervert X.PC or MNP enough to
     do the job without inventing anything new. Or else UUCP?) People will
     have to run a special program at the remote end, but that shouldn't 
     be a problem. (and for those who don't have a popular computer, you
     could have a subscription option to emulate most of the fancy stuff
     with ANSI or VT100 terminal commands.)

  (2) - You may be restricting yourself by only looking at full-fledged
     operating systems like UNIX. What you need is a real-time kernel of
     sorts (probably) and a file system. You could use an operating system
     like UNIX that gives you every facility you need, or you could use
     something more bare-bones for a dedicated BBS server.

                                      Peter Desnoyers

===========================================================================
From: uunet!moegate!soley (Norman S. Soley)

In article <751@flatline.UUCP> you write:
>
>I'm working on a proposal for a multi-line chat/bbs system, and I've
>thought that a 386-based unix system would be the way to go.
>Here're the requirements that I'm looking at:
 
I don't know anything about it but I saw a package advertised in UNIX REVIEW
which might be your cup of tea, it's called Crosspoint (or maybe that was
the company name)

>-- answer-only modems.  Are these made, and are they significantly cheaper
>   than, say, a hayes modem.  What speeds/protocols are available?

I doubt it. It's much cheaper for a manufacturer to go out and buy a modem 
on a chip than it would be to design and build (and more importantly, get i
certified by the FCC, etc) an answer-only modem. 

>   What sort of price savings are there with rack mounted modems?

Pretty good once you get into the quantities you're talking about,
a big power supply is cheaper than 16 small ones.



-- 
  Norman Soley - The Communications Guy - Ontario Ministry of the Environment
soley@moegate.UUCP  or if you roll your own:  uunet!attcan!ncrcan!moegate!soley
   The Minister speaks for the Ministry, I speak for myself. Got that! Good. 
     Stay smart, go cool, be happy, it's the only way to get what you want

===========================================================================

From: uunet!tiamat.fsc.com!jim (Jim O'Connor)

To: erict@flatline.UUCP
Subject: Re: RFC on large, multi-line bbs/chat system.
In-reply-to: your article <751@flatline.UUCP>
News-Path: uunet!cs.utexas.edu!pp!milano!bigtex!mybest!moray!flatline!erict

Why the interest in answer-only modems?  I don't think anyone makes these
anymore.  If it's for security, you can fix Unix to keep people from dialing
out on them.  If it's economic reasons, just find some commodity priced
compatible modems and don't worry about fixing them.  If one breaks, through
it away.  Fairly decent 2400 baud modems can be grabbed for ~$100, especilly
in quantity.

As far as rack mount goes, it helps simplify the cabling, but can be more
expensive unless you already have a rack and power supply on site anyway.
Also, there probably not such a thing as a "clone" rack mount modem, so you'll
probably pay a higher price per modem for rack mount stuff (i.e. hobbyists
don't usually have racks, so rack mount modems are not hobbyist priced).

If you are going to have a large number of incoming lines, consider having a
mix of modem types.  For instance, if you are going to run Unix, the Telebit
modems are most popular in the Unix world.  Having a hunt group (one number,
several phone lines) of say 4 Telebit T2500's would make you a popular site
for Unix downloads and mail and news feeds (not exactly BBS stuff, but a good
service to offer if you have the capacity).  The DOS BBS world is using other
modems (USR and Hayes mostly), so you might want to provide hunt groups of
these types of modems to attract the DOS people.  The T2500's will do V.32
as well as PEP, so you'll actually have a very large V.32 capacity (if you have
other V.32 modems, you could just get Telebit TB+'s or T2000's to save a little
money).  All other modems (16 or 32 - the special modems) could be cheapo 2400
baud critters.

As far as distributing the load goes, if you have Unix and use TCP/IP to
network them, you can use NFS to cross mount file systems and make the
multiple physical systems appear as one large logical system.  Then, if you're
BBS and chat software is file system based, the users won't notice if they
get one system or the other (Well, the really sophisticated ones might :-).
This requires a good amount of system administration to keep things running
smoothly, but once set up, adding another machine into the network is much
easier, so this provides an easy method for adding capacity.  If you really
want to get carried away with things, your machines in Texas (I assume) could
be connecting via a TCP/IP bridge (leased line, dial-up SLIP, X.25, plus other
options) to machines in other places (NY, CA, FL, etc) to form a WAN and users
would be able to carry on REAL TIME conversations with people all over the
place.  You can sort of do the same thing by setting up incoming X.25 lines, so
people call call in through Tymenet or Compuserve (like uunet), but then all the
processing is going on on your machines, rather than spread out all over the
place.

If you want any help planning such a beastie, let me know.  I like setting up
things like this, and have been thinking about doing some thing like it
around here, but I don't have the financial resources to do so.
--jim
---
James B. O'Connor			jim@tiamat.fsc.com
Filtration Sciences Corporation		615/821-4022 x. 651

*** Altos users unite! mail to "info-altos-request@tiamat.fsc.com" ***

===========================================================================


From: uunet!lakesys.lakesys.COM!craig (Craig Stodolenak)

I'm in a bit of a rush this morning, so please excuse the brevity... :-)

In article <751@flatline.UUCP> you write:
>
>
>[Please, please email all replies.  I *WILL* summarize to the net.]
>
>I'm working on a proposal for a multi-line chat/bbs system, and I've
>thought that a 386-based unix system would be the way to go.
>Here're the requirements that I'm looking at:
>
>Basic requirements:
>-- Able to handle large number of incoming lines, 16 for right now.
>   Up to 32 or more if things work well.  It would be nice if the
>   software could be made to handle resources allocated over more
>   than one computer.  (ie: can it run as part of a 4 machine
>   LAN?)
>-- bbs system with threaded message bases, private mail, up/downloads
>-- chat system with multiple channels and more features than "who's
>   on right now" :-)
>-- able to drive full-screen and/or glass-tty terminals (see below)
>-- support for multple terminal emulations, and room for customization
>   for new terminals.  (At least vt100 and ansi.  If it uses
>   termcap/terminfo and/or VDI libs and/or curses, all the better.)
>
>Secondary requirements:
>-- access to source code or *good* support from company to deal with
>   needed local modifications
>-- support for games (single and/or multiple player)
>   Some games will be written locally and will need to be accessible
>   as well.
>-- support for online database searches of cd-rom or other mass
>   storage devices
>-- if source is available, it be in C or some other 'real' language. :-)
>
>Other things I've thought about:
>
>-- answer-only modems.  Are these made, and are they significantly cheaper
>   than, say, a hayes modem.  What speeds/protocols are available?
>   What sort of price savings are there with rack mounted modems?
>
>-- buying a used miniframe, so that I can expand in all directions
>   later on (ie: CPU, mass storage, serial lines, etc etc)
>   (I could just get an 88000 card for the 386, I guess. :-)
>   Is this at all practical?  Would the maintenace costs and problems
>   defeat the expandable-cpu pluses?

I believe that a micro would still be the best bet.  Mini's are alwfully
expensive (like "big" 386's are cheap, right), and to get any kind of warranty
you need a service contract and all those headaches.  There really isn't that
much that a mini has over a micro w/smart I/O boards anyway.

>
>-- other operating systems.  The only other multitasking OS I'm at
>   all familiar with is OS-9/68K.  I'm not interested in MS-DOS
>   or OS/2 based applications.

I highly recommend that you look into other alternatives to Unix (as long as
you don't need the net access... *the* major plus for Unix in my book).
THEOS, PICK especially (especially for DBM-like applications like a BBS or
multi-player games or whatever), and many other OS's exist.  Check them out.

>
>I'm interested in any comments you might have about conferencing
>systems, chat systems, unix-based bbs'es, 386 Unix or anything else
>you feel is relevant.

Well, we use PicoSpan here (Unix), and it works well (plus it's pretty
inexpensive compared to others we've looked at).  A full-featured
threaded-conference BBS package.  Highly versatile.  We use 'conf', a PD chat
program that gives us everything we need in that regard (check your nearest
netlib).  As for Unix we go with SCO Xenix 386... very capable in regards to
our needs... again, check it out.
>
>Lookit all those questions. :-)

Will you lookit the time?  I gotta' get out of here.
>
>Again, please email replies, I'll summarize to the net.

Again, sorry so brief... I'm late already!

-- 
Craig L. Stodolenak             "...there are no truths, only lies, but some
uwvax!uwmcsd1!lakesys!craig      of the lies are useful (sometimes)."
craig@lakesys.lakesys.COM                                        -- Dave Lord


===========================================================================

From: texbell!cs.utexas.edu!atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu!heins (Leeland Heins)

Eric,

   Its been my experience that '386 machines are typically only capable
of handling a few users.  While the '386 lends itself to running single
user applications fairly fast, it seems to bog down quickly in a multiuser
multitasking environment.  This may be in part due to the hardware
surrounding the '386 (usually an AT on steroids).  For a multi-user machine
its essential to get as much RAM as possible (figure at least 1M for UNIX
and an additional meg for each user, and to get at least two hard drives.
The latter is essential, since paging on the same hard drive as all other
disk access is on will cause significant performance problems.  Ideally
heavily used file systems should be spread over as many disk arms as
possible to maximize I/O bandwidth.  SCSI drives really work nice, since
SCSI has dynamic reconnect, and most quality drives such as Quantum, CDC
and Maxtor also integrate hardware readahead caches.  Another problem with
'386 boxes is fun with flaky tape backup and RS-232 devices.  For a system as
large as you are talking I'd be looking into a mini or workstation level
machine.  We use two VAXes running 4.3BSD-Tahoe UNIX for our online
information system, the main one being a VAX 8250 with two RA81 (456M) hard
drives and 8M of RAM (which should be 16M real soon now).

					Lee Heins, EXNET Programmer
					Iowa State U. Extension
					...!hplabs!hp-lsd!atanasoff!heins
					heins@atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu

Disclaimer:  My employers don't ever listen to me, let alone let me speak
   for them.  :-)

===========================================================================

From: texbell!cs.utexas.edu!marob.masa.com!lilink!tbetz (Tom Betz)

To: erict@flatline.UUCP
Subject: Re: RFC on large, multi-line bbs/chat system.
Newsgroups: comp.misc,alt.bbs,comp.unix.i386
In-Reply-To: <751@flatline.UUCP>
Organization: Greyston Business Services, Inc.
Cc: 

Eric , in <751@flatline.UUCP> you said:

|I'm working on a proposal for a multi-line chat/bbs system, and I've
|thought that a 386-based unix system would be the way to go.
|Here're the requirements that I'm looking at:
|
|Basic requirements:
|-- Able to handle large number of incoming lines, 16 for right now.
|   Up to 32 or more if things work well.  It would be nice if the
|   software could be made to handle resources allocated over more
|   than one computer.  (ie: can it run as part of a 4 machine
|   LAN?)

Magpie

|-- bbs system with threaded message bases, private mail, up/downloads

Magpie

|-- chat system with multiple channels and more features than "who's
|   on right now" :-)

Magchat

|-- able to drive full-screen and/or glass-tty terminals (see below)
|-- support for multple terminal emulations, and room for customization
|   for new terminals.  (At least vt100 and ansi.  If it uses
|   termcap/terminfo and/or VDI libs and/or curses, all the better.)

Magpie

|Secondary requirements:
|-- access to source code or *good* support from company to deal with
|   needed local modifications

Steve Manes, author of Magpie.  Talk to him about what he's done
for NY City Board of Ed, and the LAPD.

|-- support for games (single and/or multiple player)
|   Some games will be written locally and will need to be accessible
|   as well.

If you can run it from the shell, you can run it from Magpie.

|-- support for online database searches of cd-rom or other mass
|   storage devices

On the NY Board of Ed's system, they run BRS.  If the Unix port
you use supports it, so will Magpie.

|-- if source is available, it be in C or some other 'real' language. :-)

Steve prefers to do his own mods, but C source can be had
for a price.

Check out Magpie HQ to see the beta of his new version, and the
MAGPIE discussion to see what's in the pipeline.  212-420-0527.
Drop a copy of this posting on Steve there, and see what he has
to say about it.

You can also download a copy of the previous version of Magpie
there and try it out on your 386 Xenix system, if you have one.

Check out NYCENET to see how he has customized it for the NY
Board of Ed.  Very different command structure, about 16 lines
(at present, more coming, after IBM funds the 800 lines) and BRS
on-line (though not immediately available - you need permissions
from Buzz Robbins, the Sysop).  212-769-0550 

Disclaimer: I have no connection with Magpie, other than as a 
	    real fan of the software.

-- 
"There are no magicians. There are no hidden     |  rutgers!lilink!upaya!tbetz
 people or gurus somewhere in secret. You have   | Tom Betz, Greyston Foundation
 already been given the teaching by the greatest |       114 Woodworth Ave.
 illuminated sages born." - Gopi Krishna         |     Yonkers, NY 10701-2509

===========================================================================

From: texbell!cs.utexas.edu!cse.ogc.edu!ncube!tessi!escargot!chrisb (Chris Bradley)

In article <751@flatline.UUCP> you write:
>I'm working on a proposal for a multi-line chat/bbs system, and I've
>thought that a 386-based unix system would be the way to go.
>Here're the requirements that I'm looking at:
>
>Basic requirements:
>-- Able to handle large number of incoming lines, 16 for right now.
>   Up to 32 or more if things work well.  It would be nice if the
>   software could be made to handle resources allocated over more
>   than one computer.  (ie: can it run as part of a 4 machine
>   LAN?)

Chances are a 386 UNIX based machine IS the way to go. That's what I'm using
right now. I can say that a normal PC under DOS would be unbearable.

>-- bbs system with threaded message bases, private mail, up/downloads

Do you want it to interface to any existing networking mailers?

>-- chat system with multiple channels and more features than "who's
>   on right now" :-)
>-- able to drive full-screen and/or glass-tty terminals (see below)
>-- support for multple terminal emulations, and room for customization
>   for new terminals.  (At least vt100 and ansi.  If it uses
>   termcap/terminfo and/or VDI libs and/or curses, all the better.)

Easier said than done, however it's possible!

>Secondary requirements:
>-- access to source code or *good* support from company to deal with
>   needed local modifications

I am currently writing a BBS that will work under UNIX or MS-DOS, and I
will distribute source code free, and answer any questions one might have.

>-- support for games (single and/or multiple player)
>   Some games will be written locally and will need to be accessible
>   as well.

My BBS won't directly support games, however, there are necessary hooks to
include their usage.

>-- support for online database searches of cd-rom or other mass
>   storage devices
>-- if source is available, it be in C or some other 'real' language. :-)

Yes, it's in C. :-))

>Other things I've thought about:
>
>-- answer-only modems.  Are these made, and are they significantly cheaper
>   than, say, a hayes modem.  What speeds/protocols are available?
>   What sort of price savings are there with rack mounted modems?

Chances are an "Answer-only" modem would cost you close to or just as much as
a "real" modem. Plus, how would your system network without the use of an
auto-dial modem?

>-- buying a used miniframe, so that I can expand in all directions
>   later on (ie: CPU, mass storage, serial lines, etc etc)
>   (I could just get an 88000 card for the 386, I guess. :-)
>   Is this at all practical?  Would the maintenace costs and problems
>   defeat the expandable-cpu pluses?

You're bound to run into hardware/software incompatability, and would only
be able to fix problems if you knew what to do.

>-- other operating systems.  The only other multitasking OS I'm at
>   all familiar with is OS-9/68K.  I'm not interested in MS-DOS
>   or OS/2 based applications.
>
>I'm interested in any comments you might have about conferencing
>systems, chat systems, unix-based bbs'es, 386 Unix or anything else
>you feel is relevant.

You didn't mention networking message bases above, however I feel that this
is imperative. There's a big difference between talking to the users in your
area and talking to users around the world. Plus, your bbs, if you didn't have
a method of networking, would be rather boring for the first month, before
it gained popularity, of course :-).

My bbs, when finished, will have networking news, networking mail, UUCP
interface to the world.

If you're interested, I'll give you more about it. Just mail me a message!

-->Chris

===============================================================================
| Name : Chris Bradley                |  Wanna   | "I didn't like the Mercury |
| UUCP : ...tektronix!escargot!chrisb |  talk?   | Sable, so I bought a Ford  |
| Phone: (503) 644-3585 (Home)        | Call me! | Taurus instead!"           |
===============================================================================

===========================================================================

From: milano!pp!cs.utexas.edu!columbia.edu!cucard!dasys1!manes (Steve Manes)

Take a look at Magpie/Xenix (which is compatible under SVR3 with other 386
Unixen as well).  The only requirement it doesn't meet is source code
availability (unless you are well-financed for a source code agreement).

I have Magpie running at the NYC Board of Ed's NYCENET system on a 386 with
16 users and it's expanding to 40 users by year's end.  It's been very
successful with both students and various education associations.  If you
want to give it a call, it's (212)769-0550.

You can also call my Support BBS, Magpie-HQ, at (212)420-0527, where I have
Magpie 2.0 in beta test (release: July '89).  Magpie is distributed
Shareware ($100 noncommercial/$350 commercial) and I'm the author (and a
member of the Association of Shareware Professionals).
-- 
+-----
+ Steve Manes
+ decvax!philabs!cmcl2!hombre!magpie!manes       Magpie BBS: 212-420-0527
+ SmartMail:  manes@magpie.MASA.COM

===========================================================================

From: karl@ddsw1.mcs.com (Karl Denninger)

To: erict@flatline.UUCP
Subject: Re: RFC on large, multi-line bbs/chat system.
Newsgroups: comp.misc,alt.bbs,comp.unix.i386
In-Reply-To: <751@flatline.UUCP>
Organization: Macro Computer Solutions, Inc., Mundelein, IL
Cc: 

In article <751@flatline.UUCP> you write:
>
>
>[Please, please email all replies.  I *WILL* summarize to the net.]
>
>I'm working on a proposal for a multi-line chat/bbs system, and I've
>thought that a 386-based unix system would be the way to go.
>Here're the requirements that I'm looking at:
>
>Basic requirements:
>-- Able to handle large number of incoming lines, 16 for right now.
>   Up to 32 or more if things work well.  It would be nice if the
>   software could be made to handle resources allocated over more
>   than one computer.  (ie: can it run as part of a 4 machine
>   LAN?)
>-- bbs system with threaded message bases, private mail, up/downloads
>-- chat system with multiple channels and more features than "who's
>   on right now" :-)
>-- able to drive full-screen and/or glass-tty terminals (see below)
>-- support for multple terminal emulations, and room for customization
>   for new terminals.  (At least vt100 and ansi.  If it uses
>   termcap/terminfo and/or VDI libs and/or curses, all the better.)

All this is no problem.  AKCS does it right now... :-)

Video attributes are supported, as is a redefinable "message" set for bbs
messages (internal prompts, etc), video attributes, and more.  A Chat module
is provided in source form; you can modify this to suit (although it is
reasonable complete and very fast as it sits).

A 386 should be easily able to handle 16-32 users.... if you have the disk
space to store all the posts :-)

It also interfaces with Usenet (this can DRAMATICALLY up your disk
requirements :-), and in addition it communicates with other AKCS sites...
you could join our AKCS Network!

>Secondary requirements:
>-- access to source code or *good* support from company to deal with
>   needed local modifications
>-- support for games (single and/or multiple player)
>   Some games will be written locally and will need to be accessible
>   as well.
>-- support for online database searches of cd-rom or other mass
>   storage devices
>-- if source is available, it be in C or some other 'real' language. :-)

Well, you can define callouts to anything you want (in the BBS command
tables); this takes care of local enhancements without needing the source
code.  It is also available, and we offer _excellent_ support -- just ask a
few of our current customers.

AKCS is written in "C".

If you want to ask a few users what they think of our support, give 'em a
holler on the email links.  "tronsbox" and "point" are two systems that have
contributed numerous suggestions -- and seen them come to fruition within a
few weeks.  Either is reachable by bouncing off of us -- point is in the
Chicago area, while tronsbox is out in New Jersey.  (mail to
ddsw1!tronsbox!tron1 or ddsw1!point!wek).

>I'm interested in any comments you might have about conferencing
>systems, chat systems, unix-based bbs'es, 386 Unix or anything else
>you feel is relevant.
>
>Lookit all those questions. :-)

I'm enclosing a blurb on our system; feel free to call the "data" line in
the .signature below and check it out for yourself.  AKCS is available in
binary for the 286 and 386 series machines, as well as 3b2s and 3b1s, and a
few others.  We will port to nearly anything; the code is _highly_ portable
and was written to work with most any Unix type operating system.

Again, let me know if we can be of help.

				AKCS(tm) V6.2

	The Future in Computer Conferencing is here today.

AKCS is a threaded conferencing package with extraordinary versatility, ease
of use, performance, and most of all, support.  AKCS is the answer to your 
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Some key features of AKCS V6.2 are:

o  Private mailer functions integrated into the captive environment.  Now 
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o  Attached files, permitting the inclusion of lenghty (or binary) files 
   easily with AKCS postings.   Uses any number of external protocols, and 
   batches files for protocols that can handle the conventions required (ie: 
   kermit, zmodem, etc).

o  Full-screen editor support, with context display, for users who have 
   cursor-mapped terminals.  Your user-defined item and response separator 
   formats are preserved while viewing the context window.

o  Extensible command set, including privilege mask capabilities so you can
   allow or deny individial commands to users based on your preferences.
   AKCS can handle "calling out" to external programs as well without
   hassle, and is capable of passing security information to those programs
   for your own use.

o  Redefinable configurations, with any number supported.  This allows
   the user to choose the "personality" he or she likes best!  In addition,
   a number of user preferences are able to be chosen by each individual
   user, and saved permanently -- users can "customize" the AKCS environment
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   provides!

o  Will operate in a sublogin ("chroot"ed area), and Special versions are
   available to operate over a NFS or RFS Lan (required changes are in the 
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conveniently list here.  The best way to experience the power of AKCS is to
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	o 	SCO Xenix/286 and /386
	o 	Microport Unix SysV/286 and /386
	o 	AT&T 3b1 and 3b2 series systems

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System Class			Binary Price		Annual Support
(Letter, examples)		(Including utilities)	(First 6 mos. included)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
* A - 80286, AT&T 7300/3b1	$149.00			$49.00
  B - "AT" '386, 3b2/310,
    Microvax-II			$249.00			$49.00
  C - 3b2/400, UVax 3800,
    Vax 11/780			$499.00			$99.00
  D - Vax 8600 series, 8800,
    large Amdahls, etc.		$999.00			$199.00


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				+ Porting Charges

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415 South East Garfield Avenue
Mundelein, IL  60060
(312) 566-8910

For a complete live demonstration of AKCS call our computer system by modem at:
(312) 566-8911 or (312) 566-8912 24-hour modem access at 300-2400 baud

--
Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl)
Public Access Data Line: [+1 312 566-8911], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910]
Macro Computer Solutions, Inc.		"Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"


-- 
"More ambience, less substance."
J. Eric Townsend -- uunet!sugar!flatline!erict  || cosc5zz@george.uh.edu
511 Parker #2, Houston, Tx 77007
EastEnders Mailing list: eastender@flatline.UUCP