[comp.unix.i386] Online Manual needed

dpi@loft386.UUCP (Doug Ingraham) (11/09/89)

I know I have seen the online question before.  If I remember correctly
the answer as to why they (insert Unix Vendor here) don't include man pages
is that AT&T treats them as source and wants an outrageous amount for
them.  Something like $10000.  Seems crazy to me too.

-- 
Doug Ingraham (SysAdmin)
Lofty Pursuits (Public Access for Rapid City SD USA)
uunet!loft386!dpi

pim@cti-software.nl (Pim Zandbergen) (11/10/89)

dpi@loft386.UUCP (Doug Ingraham) writes:

>I know I have seen the online question before.  If I remember correctly
>the answer as to why they (insert Unix Vendor here) don't include man pages
>is that AT&T treats them as source and wants an outrageous amount for
>them.  Something like $10000.  Seems crazy to me too.

This amount is for the  unformatted man pages. Surely, any Unix vendor
could include nroff formatted man pages if SCO can.
-- 
Pim Zandbergen                                   domain : pim@cti-software.nl
CTI Software BV                                  uucp   : ..!uunet!ctisbv!pim
Laan Copes van Cattenburch 70                    phone  : +31 70 542302
2585 GD The Hague, The Netherlands               fax    : +31 70 512837

sauer@dell.dell.com (Charlie Sauer) (11/11/89)

In article <1618@ctisbv.cti-software.nl> pim@cti-software.nl (Pim Zandbergen) writes:
>This amount is for the  unformatted man pages. Surely, any Unix vendor
>could include nroff formatted man pages if SCO can.

Dell Unix System V.3.2 Version 1.1, announced and demonstrated last week at 
Unix Expo, includes formatted man pages and the BSD man command.  I've 
submitted a press release on 1.1 to comp.newprod, but haven't seen it posted 
yet.
-- 
Charlie Sauer  Dell Computer Corp.     !'s:uunet!dell!sauer
               9505 Arboretum Blvd     @'s:sauer@dell.com
               Austin, TX 78759-7299   
               (512) 343-3310

support@ism780c.isc.com (Support account) (11/11/89)

In article <461@mwtech.UUCP> martin@mwtech.UUCP (Martin Weitzel) writes:
>A rather simple solution to this problem would be an online manual,
>which ideally is allways of the same release as the system. I would
>even be willing to *pay* for this a little extra, if it's allways
>up to date!
>
Apologies if this has been received previously:

This is in reply to the current net discussion about the difficulty in
finding manual entries in various vendors' packaged UNIX products.  We at
INTERACTIVE Systems Corp. appreciate the concerns listed in the attached
message and have been working with our customers over the past few months to
better understand their documentation needs.  As a result of these
discussions, we are pleased to advise that the next release of the 386/ix
Operating System, release 2.2, due out in Q1 1990, will contain significant
documentation improvements.

User feedback focused on two related areas in our current product.  First was
the absence of on-line manual entries.  Second was the organization of manual
entries that may be spread out over a number of different guides.
Complicating the orginazational issue was the fact that the guides are are
permanently bound and thus may not be reorganized by the user.

We will begin supplying on-line manual entries at no extra charge in release
2.2 of the 386/ix OS.  There will be one subset supplied with the Base OS
that contains the User's Manual entries, and one with the SDS that contains
the Programmer's Manual entries.  Initially we will supply on-line manual
pages only with the OS and SDS.  We will supply on-line manual entries for
other 386/ix-based products in future releases of those products as demand
warrants.

We will begin supplying the entire set of AT&T manual entries in hardcopy at
no extra charge beginning with release 2.2.  Again, the Base OS will contain
the User's Manual entries, and the SDS the Programmer's Manual entries.  They
will be integrated with changes and new entries specific to the 386/ix OS.
They will be provided in 3-ring binder format (along with the binder itself,
of course).  All manual entries provided with our other 386/ix-based products
will be distributed in 3-ring binder format as well; the time frame for this
will coincide with the next scheduled release of each product after release
2.2 of the OS and SDS.

We are pleased to announce these positive steps addressing user issues
brought up in this forum.  (Yes, we are out there listening...)

INTERACTIVE Systems Corp.
386/ix Product Management


-------

rac@sherpa.uucp (Roger Cornelius) (11/11/89)

In article <1618@ctisbv.cti-software.nl>,
	pim@cti-software.nl (Pim Zandbergen) writes:
< dpi@loft386.UUCP (Doug Ingraham) writes:
< 
<>I know I have seen the online question before.  If I remember correctly
<>the answer as to why they (insert Unix Vendor here) don't include man pages
<>is that AT&T treats them as source and wants an outrageous amount for
<>them.  Something like $10000.  Seems crazy to me too.
< 
< This amount is for the  unformatted man pages. Surely, any Unix vendor
< could include nroff formatted man pages if SCO can.
< -- 

I recently installed SCO's 2.2 -> 2.3 man page update and they are now
distributed in unformatted form.

--
Roger A. Cornelius           rac@sherpa            uunet!sherpa!rac

madd@world.std.com (jim frost) (11/12/89)

support@ism780c.isc.com (Support  account) writes:
>[...] we are pleased to advise that the next release of the 386/ix
>Operating System, release 2.2, due out in Q1 1990, will contain significant
>documentation improvements.[...]
>We will begin supplying on-line manual entries at no extra charge in release
>2.2 of the 386/ix OS. [...]
>We will begin supplying the entire set of AT&T manual entries in hardcopy at
>no extra charge beginning with release 2.2.[...]
>They will be provided in 3-ring binder format (along with the binder itself,
>of course).

That's response for you.  You guys just scored high points with me,
even higher than when I first dealt with your X11 implementation.
Next question: what is your upgrade policy?  Or: what's it going to
cost me to get all this added value?

jim frost
software tool & die     "The World" Public Access Unix for the '90s
madd@std.com            +1 617-739-WRLD  24hrs {3,12,24}00bps

jiii@visdc.UUCP (John E Van Deusen III) (11/12/89)

In article <36311@ism780c.isc.com> support@ism780c.UUCP (Support
account) writes:
> ... we are pleased to advise that the next release of the 386/ix
> Operating System, release 2.2, due out in Q1 1990, will contain
> significant documentation improvements.

That's very nice, but I was hoping for System V Release 4.0 in the first
quarter of 1990.  As I recall, perfectly-adequate, on-line documentation
was being shipped with systems sold in the early 1980's.

According to the November 1, 1989 issue of UNIX International GAZETTE,
Release 4.0 was running on a 386/486 at the UNIX EXPO tradeshow, thanks
I believe to NEC, and a pre-release version has been available to both
ISC and SCO for some time.
--
John E Van Deusen III, PO Box 9283, Boise, ID  83707, (208) 343-1865

uunet!visdc!jiii

dyer@spdcc.COM (Steve Dyer) (11/12/89)

In article <665@visdc.UUCP> jiii@visdc.UUCP (John E Van Deusen III) writes:
>According to the November 1, 1989 issue of UNIX International GAZETTE,
>Release 4.0 was running on a 386/486 at the UNIX EXPO tradeshow, thanks
>I believe to NEC, and a pre-release version has been available to both
>ISC and SCO for some time.

Er, it takes a little bit more than a prerelease to ship as a product.
Believe me, productizing it and making it supportable is a lot of work.
If companies like SCO and ISC shipped V.4 out the door anytime soon,
this newsgroup would be even more clogged than it is already with moaning
and groaning about V.4 and the bugs, the omissions, the unsupported hardware,
and the gall of ISC or SCO to take your money, blah-blah, etc.

You should all be glad V.3 is in the bad shape it's in today... :-)

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
dyer@arktouros.mit.edu, dyer@hstbme.mit.edu

larry@nstar.UUCP (Larry Snyder) (11/13/89)

In article <36311@ism780c.isc.com>, support@ism780c.isc.com (Support  account) writes:
> discussions, we are pleased to advise that the next release of the 386/ix
> Operating System, release 2.2, due out in Q1 1990, will contain significant
> documentation improvements.

What will the update policy be for those who have purchased previous
versions of your product and did not purchase the annual support?  I called
Brian @ ISC in Hollis and he mentioned that there is no update policy for
those customers not on annual support or for those running past the
initial support period of 30 days.  The only option for upgrading is
to re-purchase the product at the current price.


-- 
Larry Snyder                     uucp:iuvax!ndcheg!ndmath!nstar!larry

                  ***  ISC, where is the RMA? *** 

evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) (11/13/89)

In article <573@ursa-major.SPDCC.COM> dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.COM (Steve Dyer) writes:
>In article <665@visdc.UUCP> jiii@visdc.UUCP (John E Van Deusen III) writes:

>>According to the November 1, 1989 issue of UNIX International GAZETTE,
>>Release 4.0 was running on a 386/486 at the UNIX EXPO tradeshow, thanks
>>I believe to NEC, and a pre-release version has been available to both
>>ISC and SCO for some time.

>Er, it takes a little bit more than a prerelease to ship as a product.
>Believe me, productizing it and making it supportable is a lot of work.

Certianly true in this case. I was at Unix Expo and there were a number
of systems running Vr4. Intel had already displayed packaging and it,
ISC and Esix have announced tentative release dates.  *Tentative*.

I was told at the show that there is MUCH work still to be done, especially
on the networking support, before it's releasable product.

As for SCO, they haven't even got 3.2 out of the gate in big numbers,
let alone release 4.

-- 
Men. They can put one on the moon. | Evan Leibovitch, Telly Computing,
Why can't they put 'em all there?  | located in beautiful Brampton, Ontario
            - CBC's "Street Legal" | evan@telly.on.ca / uunet!attcan!telly!evan

sl@van-bc.UUCP (Stuart Lynne) (11/14/89)

In article <111055@nstar.UUCP> larry@nstar.UUCP (Larry Snyder) writes:
>In article <36311@ism780c.isc.com>, support@ism780c.isc.com (Support  account) writes:
}> discussions, we are pleased to advise that the next release of the 386/ix
}> Operating System, release 2.2, due out in Q1 1990, will contain significant
}> documentation improvements.
}
}What will the update policy be for those who have purchased previous
}versions of your product and did not purchase the annual support?  I called
}Brian @ ISC in Hollis and he mentioned that there is no update policy for
}those customers not on annual support or for those running past the
}initial support period of 30 days.  The only option for upgrading is
}to re-purchase the product at the current price.

Sounds like an excellent reason for not buying any ISC products until they
have *everything* working 100%. Otherwise you'll end up having to
re-purchase it every year or so or pay for their annual support as well.

Hm, wonder what marketing droid thought this one up :-)

If ISC really wants to make some hay with their new policy of including man
pages they should probably make them available at a reasonable cost to
previous owners of their software. 

-- 
Stuart.Lynne@wimsey.bc.ca ubc-cs!van-bc!sl 604-937-7532(voice) 604-939-4768(fax)

martin@mwtech.UUCP (Martin Weitzel) (11/15/89)

In article <62@van-bc.UUCP> sl@van-bc.UUCP (Stuart Lynne) writes:
[many lines deleted]
>If ISC really wants to make some hay with their new policy of including man
>pages they should probably make them available at a reasonable cost to
>previous owners of their software. 
>
My opinion too! As you see, adressing this topic here has brought many
followups. I think, this news group should not be cluttered too long
with the whish for an online manual, but if we send enough e-mail to
ISC, I hope they think about some way, to make the online man pages
available to us. If there is no reaction, we might bring up the topic
again. Other suggestions?

support@ism780c.isc.com (Support account) (11/16/89)

In article <1989Nov11.182049.25833@world.std.com> madd@world.std.com (jim frost) writes:
>Next question: what is your upgrade policy?  Or: what's it going to
>cost me to get all this added value?
>

In general, customers who have V. 2.0.n of 386/ix will be
eligible for updates to that version of 386/ix. We'll say
in general because there may be individual purchasers from distributors
who have non-standard agreements, but as a general rule the
above will apply.

The cost of upgrades includes 2 items, materials (media and
documentation), and any applicable royalty payments. In the
case of the 2.2 upgrade, the costs in these two areas hasn't
been determined yet, but should be minimal (no flames please
about the varying definitions of minimal, Interactive's policy
with upgrades is simply to recover costs).

....

support@ism780c.isc.com (Support account) (11/16/89)

In article <111055@nstar.UUCP> larry@nstar.UUCP (Larry Snyder) writes:
>What will the update policy be for those who have purchased previous
>versions of your product and did not purchase the annual support?  I called
>Brian @ ISC in Hollis and he mentioned that there is no update policy for
>those customers not on annual support or for those running past the
>initial support period of 30 days.  The only option for upgrading is
>to re-purchase the product at the current price.
>

Further information on upgrades from INTERACTIVE:

This message is to clarify the concern stated by Larry Snyder in his 13
November posting.  INTERACTIVE's standard update policy is to provide update
releases to existing customers at replacement cost.  Replacement cost
includes media, manufacturing, distribitution, and royalty expenses as
applicable.  No additional margins are allocated to update releases.

Therefore, the statement from Hollis support is correct (if slightly
misleading) in that updates are not discounted (since there is no margin to
discount).  However, updates are always substantially cheaper than regular
releases since they consist of only those components updated on the base
release, and may not contain complete documentation or software.

INTERACTIVE Distribution in Hollis provides two additional update services
for its customers:  1. If a customer purchases software and an update is
released during the warranty period, INTERACTIVE Distribution will supply the
update free of charge.  2. If a customer purchases the optional Response/ix
support package, they will receive a 50% discount on any update software
during the term of the support program.  This means they will be able to
purchase the software update at a price less than the actual replacement
cost.

Regarding the update for customers moving from 386/ix OS Release 2.0.2 to
2.2, pricing has not been set and manufacturing costs are still being
finalized.  However, the update pricing for this release will follow the
replacement cost rule, and while the update will include much of the complete
OS software and documentation, it will be designed to work as an _u_p_d_a_t_e to
_e_x_i_s_t_i_n_g installations of 386/ix and its fee will remain considerably below
that purchasing a new 386/ix Release 2.2 OS.