blesch@whuxj.UUCP (Carl Blesch) (01/27/84)
Recently there's been quite a bit of discussion in net.followup on mandatory seatbelt laws. I'd like to start up a bit of discussion on a related matter and see how people think. I've been a seatbelt wearer ever since I took driver's ed in high school, and my seatbelt habit paid off last year when I was able to walk away mildly bruised from a rather serious accident. When I mention how valuable my seatbelt was to ardent seatbelt non-users, they often respond, "well, I know of so-and-so who was in a crash, and she survived 'cause she WASN'T wearing her seatbelt." These people explain that so-and-so's car flipped into the river and the driver would have been trapped if she were wearing her belt, or she was hit from the side and got pushed out of the way, whereas if she were belted in, would have been squashed, etc. I'm wondering, are there any statistics to substantiate these sort of things -- that not wearing a seatbelt can actually help in certain crashes, or conversely, that seatbelts can be liabilities in certain types of crashes? I'm afraid that seatbelt non-users will cook up any kind of a story to excuse their bad habit. Still plan to keep wearing my seatbelt . . . Carl Blesch, . . .!whuxj!blesch
stekas@hou2g.UUCP (J.STEKAS) (01/27/84)
Yes, there is plenty of statistical evidence that
shows seatbelts are safer. Many old time race drivers
belonged to the "I'd rather be thrown from the wreck
than burn" school. Statistics showed that better than
90% of those thrown from the car ended up dead. Seat
belts prevent that, especially exit via the windshield.
Many people believe that they could put their hands against
the dash and restrain themselves in the event of an accident.
Most of us can recall being thown under (or into) the dash
when the driver of a car we were riding in braked suddenly.
That braking force amounts to only 1G (in the best cars)
but even low speed collisions can generate many Gs.
If your worried about skidding into a lake, practice undoing your
seatbelt, and make sure your passengers do too. But don't drive
around without belts for that reason, there might just be a telephone
poll between you and that lake.
Jimajaym@ihu1h.UUCP (01/27/84)
At one time, I didnt wear seatbelts either for the same reason. In fact, I had a relative who sustained a serious injury because he wore them. But, at some point, I was shown statistics that appeared to be reliable, (i.e. they were sponsored by both a government agency and a comsumer interest group), and correct. I cant remember where they appeared, but logic says I have the best odds if I follow 'reliable' statistics. While on the subject, did anyone see the news Thusday night where a court reduced the payment received by a crash victim from approx. $1 million to about $10,000 because no seatbelts were worn. Interesting to say the least.
walsh@ihuxi.UUCP (01/28/84)
I've heard of two instances where NOT wearing a belt saved lives. (I am certainly not advocating not wearing seatbelts, however. Two out of hundreds is not much!) The first was my sister-in-law's sister. She had been a passenger in a car full of people (maybe five or six). There was a terrible accident (I can barely remember the details), and she was the only one thrown clear of the car. She was also the only one that survived, although she suffered a broken back, and is now recovered. The second was a tongue-in-cheek tale (maybe I read it in netnews?) of a guy whose car flew over the side of a cliff after he'd been thrown clear. He was ticketed for not wearing his seatbelt! (I think this was in Europe somewhere). These instances are certainly rare, and are not enough to convince me or any other informed person that seatbelts are not necessary. Anyone who has ever worked in a hospital or such knows only too well what the consequences of not wearing a seatbelt are. I'm sure that for every story like the two above, there are hundreds in which the cause of death or injury was being thrown from the car. B. Walsh P. S. - Another important safety act, besides buckling up, is locking the doors while driving. This also helps to prevent being thrown from the car.
sebb@pyuxss.UUCP (S Badian) (01/30/84)
I seems to me that the people who argue that not wearing seatbelts is safer are purposefully ignoring the statistics. How often have you run into a lake? The most common accident is getting hit in the rear. For both cars involved it is much safer to wear seatbelts. It just keeps you from flying out of the car. And you're really fooling yourself if you think you can stop yourself. Something that many people overlook about seatbelts is that they keep you in the driver's seat during difficult driving. When you're driving along you're floating in your car. Nothing but your seatbelt is going to keep you in that driver's seat. You try steering while you're being thrown to the opposite side of the car. No stats can be compiled on the number of accidents people avoid by wearing their seatbelts because it can't be done. But I'm darn sure it's appreciable. I know that I've been able to pull out of some pretty bad skids and I seriously wonder if I would have been anywhere near my steering wheel if it hadn't been for my trusty seatbelts. People who insist on not wearing their seatbelts are ignoring the statistics. They're probably the same fools that tailgate. But, personally, I don't give a damn. It's their right to kill themselves and when they do they're just adding to the stats that favor my own position. Maybe they'll teach someone else with a little more common sense. Sharon Badian
stanwyck@ihuxr.UUCP (01/30/84)
Carl Blesch asked if there were any stats on what percentage of accidents
gave better odds to non-wearers of seat blets than to wearers of seat belts.
The only stats I've seen are probably 5-7 years out of date now. They
suggested that 1/1000 or 1/10000 (I believe it was the former) of the time
you are better off or even odds without a selt belt in an accident. This was
based on studies of accident reports from many places. Sample size not
mentioned, or at least not recalled.
I beleive the source was either AAA or National Traffic Saftety Board (or some
such name).
Their point was that playing the odds was extremely chancy.
I have also noticed what Carl mentioned about non-wearers always knowing
someone who fared better because they were without a belt. Except that I
have noticed that when asked for details, usually it is really that one of
their friends knew a friend whose friend was in an accident and, no, they
don't really know anything about the accident, and, no, they don't know
what injuries the person id receive (if any), and, no, they aren't sure if
they can think of any where you are better off out of a seatbelt....but their
friend told them so it muxt be true!
points: 1. it is not better to not wear a selt belt if you fall in a river.
(getting tossed around the interior of the car is more likely to
leave you unconscience or disabled than a seltbelt is to trap
you. Usually you don't want out of a submerged car that fast
anyway.
2. it is not better to be thrown from a car. If the windshield
doesn't kill you, and scrapping along the ground at 55+ mph
doesn't wipe all your skin off, then the car landing on you
will probably put you out of your misery.
Good luck, and fasten up so that the other guy doesn't have the privalige
of attending your funderal instead of sitting there in court while you sue.
--
________
( ) Don Stanwyck
@( o o )@ 312-979-3062
( || ) Cornet-367-3062
( \__/ ) ihnp4!ihuxr!stanwyck
(______) Bell Labs @ Naperville, ILfish@ihu1g.UUCP (Bob Fishell) (01/31/84)
Anybody who thinks not wearing a seatbelt is safer than wearing one is
full of sh*t. I got hit head-on a few years back by a punk in a Grand
Prix, who'd lost control of his car, donea half-doughnut in the middle
of the street, and slammed into my '72 Pinto BACKWARDS at a good 30 mph.
My car was knocked back about 20 feet, spun around almost 270 degrees,
and resembled one of Mr. T's beer cans by the time it came to rest.
Although I had to kick my way out of the car with both feet, I walked
away from the crash, sustaining only bruises to my arms, and to my
thighs where the seat belt cut into me. If I hadn't been wearing the
belt, I have no doubt whatsoever that I'd have been killed or seriously
injured. These days, I don't even move my car from one parking space to
another without my seat belt on. Mandating their installation in cars is
the best thing the government has ever done to reduce highway carnage. It's
just too bad that more peole don't wear them.
--
Bob Fishell
ihnp4!ihu1g!fishrsp@opus.UUCP (01/31/84)
I don't have any statistics to show but I was a member of a rescue squad for two years. Before joining the rescue squad I had seen all the highway horror films in driver's education classes but still didn't wear seat belts. I saw one accident in particular that really convinced me and have been wearing seat belts ever since (even as a back seat passenger). I can recall *NO* accidents where the vehicle occupants would have been better off without seat belts. Russ Panneton NBI Inc. Boulder CO ..!nbires!opus!rsp
tackett@wivax.UUCP (Raymond Tackett) (01/31/84)
I know several New Hampshire State Policemen who claim they have never unbuckled a seat belt from a corpse. My experience with seatbelts includes several years of racing and about 1.2 million miles over the road. In general, I have found it is better to bash through trees, poles, etc. from inside a metal box (the car) than to try it with your own body. Getting thrown out exposes you to one additional hazard -- your car. It can catch up with you once you are outside. People who are trapped in cars are generally held in by a combination of the dash and the seat. Sometimes, the engine and the roof also help retain the driver. Seat belt releases work just fine underwater and in burning cars, provided you are conscious. If you are not conscious, you cannot get out without assistance, belted or not. Some people have a strange compulsion to get accident victims out of cars immediately. Unless the car is on fire, there is usually no hurry. Broken bones won't get any more broken sitting there. Severe bleeding can usually be controlled in place. Mouth to mouth breathing can be done from almost any position. An accident victim in a car is, in effect, wearing a crude suit of armor which will provide some protection from further impact. I witnessed an accident some years ago which illustrated another reason for wearing a seat belt. A woman was preparing to leave a parking lot by turning right. She was waiting for traffic to clear with her wheels cut right. The throttle spring broke, and the car took off as quickly as possible. With the wheels cut right, the driver was thrown left. Her elbow opened the door and out she went -- almost. She was hanging out the door with her right hand on the left side of the steering wheel. Fortunately, the car hit a tree right away before she was dragged very far or the door hit something. Had she been wearing a seat belt, she would have remained behind the wheel, open door or not. Besides being better protected, she would have had a chance to regain control of the car. Enough. I don't often type "y" for articles this long. /////\\\\\ \ \ / / From the brightly colored, ever opening 'chute \ / of NOID Ray Tackett
rmiller@ccvaxa.UUCP (02/02/84)
#R:whuxj:-9300:ccvaxa:4900023:000:410 ccvaxa!rmiller Jan 31 18:19:00 1984 tongue in cheek first, there was a story on the news wire recently of a car that got caught in an avalanche. all 3 passengers survived because they had there belts on (otherwise they would have been killed while being tossed around inside). more seriously, i have a good friend who is a doctor. she ALWAYS wears her seatbelt. when asked why, she says: "I've seen too many who didn't" uiucdcs!ccvaxa!rmiller
daemon@decwrl.UUCP (02/02/84)
From: roll::megna (Fred Megna HL01-1/P06) Yes, I definitely aggre that it is better to wear seatbelts than not to wear them. As far as TRYING to hold yourself back with your hands, this is impossible. 1st of all most accidents happen so quickly that there isn't time to put your hands up !! and 2ndly even if you did have time to brace yourself with your hands (which I have tried) the force exerted on your arms by your body will will generally break them (which happened to me). Actually it's better to do nothing and just kinda bounce off things inside the car, provided you stay in the car (think about all those drunk drivers who get in head on accidents and kill 3 or 4 people and live to tell about it !! Now I'm not advocating driving drunk. I don't want to tell anyone how to live his life but, think of the people you might leave behind. Fred Megna Digital Equipment Corp. 75 Reed Rd. Hudson, Ma. 01749 HL01-1/P06
sew@minn-ua.UUCP (02/03/84)
#R:whuxj:-9300:minn-ua:3100001:000:1839
minn-ua!sew Feb 2 11:40:00 1984
Seatbelts can be dangerous to your person and property.
I once found nicely polished ice just before a sharp turn on a country road.
I was doing 40 at the time, and couldn't change that fact before the turn
started. The road went west, I went northwest. Fortunately, before I left the
road I was able to bounce the car off the snowbanks by the side of the road and
go off-road at an angle which slowed me down quickly. The car and I stopped
not too far off the road, and a plentiful two inches ahead of the tree. But
while I was ruddering through the snow I got a bruise on my hip where the seat
belt held me in place!
Two years ago I rearended someone on an icy street (I don't care for ice much,
but we have a bit of it here in Minneapolis). I was doing 30 and the other
fellow was doing zero (his front end was a bit wrinkled already by the bumper
of the pickup ahead of him). I had a good two seconds of warning before
hitting (the roads were VERY icy..couldn't slow at all), so my wife and I
braced ourselves. I had a nice solid steering wheel to hold on to. When we
hit, my glasses went flying and my flailing arms almost broke them. If my
seat harness had not been fastened, any possible damage to my glasses could
have been avoided because they would have remained cradled on my nose and
when they reached the steering column they would have been protected by my
nice soft face cradling them. {net.lang fans need to correct me -- I said
I braced myself with plenty of time, and I said that my arms waved around.
That is what I meant. I did not say that I made my arms move.}
Oh, I should also mention the bruise which my brother got on his head. He
rolled a pickup in our driveway, and when he released the seatbelt he fell
to the roof of the cab. Without the belt, he wouldn't have had to worry
about that bruise.hamilton@uiucuxc.UUCP (02/03/84)
#R:whuxj:-9300:uiucuxc:29800001:000:38 uiucuxc!hamilton Feb 1 22:49:00 1984 think of it as evolution in action...
mbr@fortune.UUCP (02/07/84)
#R:whuxj:-9300:fortune:1500029:000:786
fortune!mbr Feb 6 16:38:00 1984
My driver ed. teacher had a simple and very convincing demonstration of the
effectiveness of seatbelts. Firmly attach a piece of string to an egg with
tape. Poke holes at either end of a box and thread one end of the string
through each hole. Tie firmly. Now throw this assembly around the room.
Next, remove the string, place the egg back in the box, and throw it around
the room again. Three guesses what happens to the egg in each case.
Of course, it is possible to break the egg even when it is strapped in, if the
string is not drawn tight enough. It is also possible to get severely injured
while wearing a seatbelt, if it is not adjusted properly.
{allegra,amd70,cbosgd,dsd,dual,
harpo,hpda,ihnp4,megatest,nsc,
oliveb,sri-unix,twg,varian,VisiA,wdl1}!fortune!mbrkeith@hp-pcd.UUCP (02/08/84)
Re: Seatbelts
Two non-wearer stories:
1) A school-mate of mine in high school was killed when he was thrown
from his car and the car rolled over him.
2) When I was in the Army, one of the "new guys" was screwing around
in one of the Army's pickups when he rolled it. He was thrown
half way out of the window and suffered a crushed pelvis when the
truck rolled onto him.
I'm convinced that seatbelts are worth wearing.
Keith M. Taylor
Corvallis, Oregon
hplabs!hp-pcd!keith