kaleb@mars.jpl.nasa.gov (Kaleb Keithley) (05/25/90)
In article <35O3P93@xds13.ferranti.com> peter@ficc.ferranti.com (Peter da Silva) writes: -In article <5623@seac.UUCP> wain@seac.UUCP (Wain Dobson) writes: -- I'm getting the feeling that I am spoiled brat as to hardware. Just what -- is everyone running out there? It would seem that a bare bones UNIX -- machine, for personal use only, could be: - -- (1) 386SX -- (2) 4 Megs of memory -- (3) Mouse -- (4) Monochrome Card -- (5) Monochrome Monitor -- (6) 80 Meg drive -- (7) ESDI/SCSI - -Less than that... what would be using the mouse for? you're not running -X in that configuration. - -Anyone feel like running up a price on this thing? Sounds like something -for the frequently asked questions file: "What's the cheapest way to get -into UNIX on the 80386?". Based on prices I just saw at a recent computer swap meet: (1) 386SX 16mhz SX m'board w/ 0k RAM US$300.00 (or) 16/20mhz SX m'board w/ 0k RAM 350.00 Baby AT case 50.00 200w P/S 50.00 101 key tactile keyboard 75.00 * (2) 4 Megs of memory 70ns SIMM @ 66.00/megabyte 264.00 (3) Mouse Logitech Hirez Bus Mouse 75.00 (4) Monochrome Card Taiwan clone VGA (Paradise) 135.00 (5) Monochrome Monitor Page White VGA mono 125.00 (6) 80 Meg drive 500.00 * (7) ESDI/SCSI 350.00 * -------- 1924.00 or subtotal 1974.00 -------- (8) ESIX SysV.3.2.D 1-2 User w/ TCP/IP + X Windows + Software development + lots more 560.00 (list?) -------- 2534.00 * Don't really know, just guessing. All prices are approximate, except the SIMMs, which is what *I* went to buy. I highly recommend spending the extra bucks and getting the VGA card and using a mono VGA monitor; mono VGA monitors only being about $10.00 more than Herc' mono monitors. Then if you want a color monitor later, you'll already have the adapter. Plus, ESIX X Windows works just fine on the mono monitor. Note: I'm not advertising/selling anything. I post these prices for their information content only. If you want to buy ESIX, call information in the 415 area code to find "the distributor near you." kaleb@thyme.jpl.nasa.gov Jet Propeller Labs Kaleb Keithley
kaleb@mars.jpl.nasa.gov (Kaleb Keithley) (05/25/90)
In article <1990May25.004135.351@ico.isc.com> rcd@ico.isc.com (Dick Dunn) writes: >peter@ficc.ferranti.com (Peter da Silva) trims the system a bit more, then >asks: > >> Anyone feel like running up a price on this thing? Sounds like something >> for the frequently asked questions file: "What's the cheapest way to get >> into UNIX on the 80386?". In the article I just posted, I forgot about a floppy drive and serial/ parallel... Teac 1.2m floppy drive 65.00 AT I/O card w/ 2s/1p 35.00 previous subtotal 2534.00 ------- 2634.00 ======= (and this price includes the OS) kaleb@thyme.jpl.nasa.gov Jet Propeller Labs Kaleb Keithley
plocher@Eng.Sun.COM (John Plocher) (05/26/90)
+-- In <1990May25.004135.351@ico.isc.com> rcd@ico.isc.com (Dick Dunn) writes | For a system to run X and be nice about it (i.e., trying to be not quite at | the bottom), take their 25 MHz machine: 4 Mb, both size floppies, 110 Mb | ESDI, VGA/monitor and ports as above, for $3100. | Add 4 Mb for about $400, modem as above. Get a decent mouse, | around $100. Maybe push the disk up to 150. If you want it to be | snappy, add $500 for cache. Probably drop one floppy. This puts | you in the $3500-4000 range. +-- To put it in perspective, (Yes, I know this sounds like a plug), the new Sun SLC comes with Monochrome 17" display (1152 X 900) 8 Mb RAM (expandable up to 40 some Meg) 12.5 MIPS (~8 SPECmarks) Ethernet, 2 X serial, 8KHz Audio I/O, kbd & mouse, SCSI controller (no disks) SunOS 4.1 Unix Full BSD *and* Full System V compatable (In net terms, includes "Base" + "SW Dev" + "Text") Standard X11r4 from MIT -or- OpenWindows from Sun (X + NeWS/PostScript) $3k-$5k depending on qty, educational discounts, etc + $250 Media charge for OS tape -or- + $600 Media and full Manual set $800 - $1k 3rd party 110Mb SCSI drive ======== $4k - $6k (And NO FAN noise!!!) -John (Yes I know it isn't a 386 :-) Plocher
cjeffery@cs.arizona.edu (Clinton Jeffery) (05/26/90)
From article <136279@sun.Eng.Sun.COM>, by plocher@Eng.Sun.COM (John Plocher): > +-- In <1990May25.004135.351@ico.isc.com> rcd@ico.isc.com (Dick Dunn) writes >...Some ISC guy was talking affordable X machine, and some Sun guy tried >to plug a Sparc... C'mon, dude, Sun won't even talk to people who need a standalone system, qty. 1 (like, at home for instance); if they did, they'd want zillions. Even your Sparc advertisement leaves out a lot of things (like the tape drive required to read the tape you listed). Anyhow, you were right about 1 thing: X is a lot more pleasant on a 10+ mips machine. I really like the color Sun I use at work. The only way I can hope to approximate it for $5K at home is to think 486, SVGA, ESIX, assemble-it-myself... Of course, I am VERY open-minded; if you Sun guys want to show me how I can get a complete solution at home for $5K this summer, go for it!!! -- | Clint Jeffery, U. of Arizona Dept. of Computer Science | cjeffery@cs.arizona.edu -or- {noao allegra}!arizona!cjeffery --
cpcahil@virtech.uucp (Conor P. Cahill) (05/26/90)
In article <136279@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> plocher@Eng.Sun.COM (John Plocher) writes: [story of sun PC & its configuration deleted] > $3k-$5k depending on qty, educational discounts, etc > + $250 Media charge for OS tape -or- + $600 Media and full Manual set > $800 - $1k 3rd party 110Mb SCSI drive > ======== > $4k - $6k (And NO FAN noise!!!) Now, give me a phone number & contact where I can get that system for that price - quantity 1. All of the pricing that has been posted here about the 386s are quantity 1 Jon Q Public prices and you can't compare them to quantity/educational discounted prices. In addition, with a 386 system the capabilities for low cost expansion totally outweigh the capabilities for the sun. -- Conor P. Cahill (703)430-9247 Virtual Technologies, Inc., uunet!virtech!cpcahil 46030 Manekin Plaza, Suite 160 Sterling, VA 22170
leech@homer.cs.unc.edu (Jonathan Leech) (05/26/90)
In article <1990May26.140550.1480@virtech.uucp> cpcahil@virtech.UUCP (Conor P. Cahill) writes: >All of the pricing that has been posted here about the 386s are quantity >1 Jon Q Public prices and you can't compare them to quantity/educational >discounted prices. No, *you* can't. Those of us who can get academic discounts certainly can, and a DS2100 (for example) looks real good compared to a 386SX. -- Jon Leech (leech@cs.unc.edu) __@/ "We were driving along, minding our own business, when there was a sudden flash of blue light which blotted out the stars. I thought it was a nuclear bomb going off and despaired for my career." - Keith Hughes
jackv@turnkey.TCC.COM (Jack F. Vogel) (05/27/90)
In article <136279@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> plocher@Eng.Sun.COM (John Plocher) writes: >To put it in perspective, .... the new Sun SLC >comes with [.... description of the SLC deleted....] > > $4k - $6k (And NO FAN noise!!!) Don't get me wrong John, I was very interested in this new SPARC and there is nothing I would love more than to have one on my desk, but come on now to REALLY put things in perspective as you say let's not over look one significant cost you forgot to mention. This is a diskless workstation and therefore it needs a server to run the boot daemon and to hold the required binaries!! This can run you a mere $20,000 :-} :-}. To be fair of course, if you distribute the cost of the server over twenty or more SLC's it is still a really cost-effective proposition, but you can't just compare it to a standalone 386 box. -- Jack F. Vogel jackv@locus.com AIX370 Technical Support - or - Locus Computing Corp. jackv@turnkey.TCC.COM
rcd@ico.isc.com (Dick Dunn) (05/28/90)
leech@homer.cs.unc.edu (Jonathan Leech) writes: > cpcahil@virtech.UUCP (Conor P. Cahill) writes: > >All of the pricing that has been posted here about the 386s are quantity > >1 Jon Q Public prices and you can't compare them to quantity/educational > >discounted prices. > No, *you* can't. Those of us who can get academic discounts...[etc] So start a new discussion thread about which manufacturers are willing to bribe educational institutions in order to boost interest in their hard- ware. (I need a less pejorative word than "bribe", I guess, since it's an eminently sensible business practice for the manufacturer and a good deal for the purchaser too. Besides, it's a proven technique in the UNIX com- munity, all the way back to UNIX itself.:-) We were talking about machines that people can afford to buy for them- selves to run UNIX. If the new Sun box prices don't apply to quantity 1 end user, it's out of this discussion, period. It *is* an interesting box, but it's not what we were talking about. -- Dick Dunn rcd@ico.isc.com uucp: {ncar,nbires}!ico!rcd (303)449-2870 ...Simpler is better.
shwake@raysnec.UUCP (Ray Shwake) (05/28/90)
In article <136279@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> plocher@Eng.Sun.COM (John Plocher) writes: >To put it in perspective, (Yes, I know this sounds like a plug), the new Sun SLC > $4k - $6k (And NO FAN noise!!!) According to UnixWorld's recent overview of the SLC, it requires a Sparc Server or other NFS-supporting server. Absent that server, just what can you do with the SLC, quiet though it be. I believe the point of this exercise is to discuss minimal configurations for a standalone UNIX platform.
leech@ornat.cs.unc.edu (Jonathan Leech) (05/28/90)
In article <1990May27.185737.331@ico.isc.com> rcd@ico.isc.com (Dick Dunn) writes: >So start a new discussion thread about which manufacturers are willing to >bribe educational institutions in order to boost interest in their hard- >ware. (I need a less pejorative word than "bribe", I guess, since it's an >eminently sensible business practice for the manufacturer and a good deal >for the purchaser too. Besides, it's a proven technique in the UNIX com- >munity, all the way back to UNIX itself.:-) This tactic is scarcely confined to Unix workstation vendors. I can walk down to the campus bookstore and order a PS/2 or Zenith 386 for well under list. >We were talking about machines that people can afford to buy for them- >selves to run UNIX. If the new Sun box prices don't apply to quantity 1 >end user, it's out of this discussion, period. It *is* an interesting box, >but it's not what we were talking about. If I buy a DS2100, the university is out of the loop, aside from my association with it giving me better pricing. I would work directly with the area DEC rep and purchase Q1. I would certainly consider myself an end user in this case. You can't simply dismiss all the people with associations that get them better pricing than you personally may manage. Whether Sun will sell Q1 or not, I don't know (and neither does anyone else in this discussion, apparently), but DEC certainly will. -- Jon Leech (leech@cs.unc.edu) __@/ ``There ain't hardly nothin' cuter nor a sleepin' baby tad lessen it's a pork chop'' - Churchy La Femme
terry@eesun1.eece.ksu.edu (Terry Hull) (05/29/90)
shwake@raysnec.UUCP (Ray Shwake) writes: >In article <136279@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> plocher@Eng.Sun.COM (John Plocher) writes: >>To put it in perspective, (Yes, I know this sounds like a plug), the new Sun SLC >> $4k - $6k (And NO FAN noise!!!) >According to UnixWorld's recent overview of the SLC, it requires a Sparc >Server or other NFS-supporting server. Absent that server, just what can >you do with the SLC, quiet though it be. You can add a disk/tape subassembly and speed by all your colleagues that are using their '386 boxes. I admit when you add the disk, the fan noise is back. ;-(. Remember, for that price you get BSD UNIX (yea!!) , development system, TCP/IP, NFS, and SunView for free. You can then use X11R4 on it as well for no additional charge. How much does the UNIX run-time, development system, TCP/IP run-time and development system, NFS and X11 add to the price of a '386 machine? -- Terry Hull Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering, Kansas State University Work: terry@eece.ksu.edu, rutgers!ksuvax1!eecea!terry Play: terry@tah386.manhattan.ks.us, rutgers!ksuvax1!eecea!tah386!terry
rfarris@rfengr.com (Rick Farris) (05/29/90)
In article <1990May28.193506.21864@maverick.ksu.ksu.edu> terry@eesun1.eece.ksu.edu (Terry Hull) writes: > How much does the UNIX run-time, development system, TCP/IP > run-time and development system, NFS and X11 add to the > price of a '386 machine? $1,000 in th case of SCO Open Desktop. Admittedly, it's a 2-user license, but you can't convince me you're going to be running the SLC as a server... -- Rick Farris RF Engineering POB M Del Mar, CA 92014 voice (619) 259-6793 rfarris@rfengr.com ...!ucsd!serene!rfarris serene.UUCP 259-7757
richard@pegasus.com (Richard Foulk) (05/29/90)
>To put it in perspective, (Yes, I know this sounds like a plug), the new Sun SLC >comes with > Monochrome 17" display (1152 X 900) > 8 Mb RAM (expandable up to 40 some Meg) > 12.5 MIPS (~8 SPECmarks) [...] Sun's new workstation is very nice for the price. But it has nowhere near the flexibility that a peecee type machine does in terms of expandability. It helps to have a popular bus (or any bus at all), and lots of competition keeping prices low on just about anything you could ever want to plug into a computer -- Sun is still lacking it these areas. As always, Sun's stuff shows great promise. But it's still got a ways to go to match a peecee for a large number of applications. -- Richard Foulk richard@pegasus.com
richard@pegasus.com (Richard Foulk) (05/29/90)
> This tactic is scarcely confined to Unix workstation vendors. I >can walk down to the campus bookstore and order a PS/2 or Zenith 386 >for well under list. Considering the absurd list price on a PS/2 I'd sure hope so. -- Richard Foulk richard@pegasus.com
andy@xwkg.Icom.Com (Andrew H. Marrinson) (05/30/90)
In article <1990May28.193506.21864@maverick.ksu.ksu.edu> terry@eesun1.eece.ksu.edu (Terry Hull) writes: >You can add a disk/tape subassembly and speed by all your colleagues >that are using their '386 boxes. True, though from the Byte review I just read you can fit your 386 with a faster disk controller than the Sun SLC has. >Remember, for that price you get BSD UNIX (yea!!) , development >system, TCP/IP, NFS, and SunView for free. I doubt if this is true. With the diskless workstation you presumably get a license to use the software which resides on your server. To run stand-alone you would need to buy the software on some media which will probably cost extra. So the savings is probably less substantial than you make it sound. Anybody know the real story on what it really costs to make an SLC a stand-alone workstation? Am I limited to buying the SCSI peripherals from Sun? If so, how much does that cost? And does anyone know how you obtain software and what it costs in such a case. Also, many vendors don't even include licensing fees in their workstation prices. Is Sun one of those? If so how much do you add to the ca. $5K price for the software license? -- Andrew H. Marrinson Icom Systems, Inc. Wheeling, IL, USA (andy@icom.icom.com)
davidsen@sixhub.UUCP (Wm E. Davidsen Jr) (05/31/90)
In article <35@raysnec.UUCP> shwake@raysnec.UUCP (Ray Shwake) writes: | According to UnixWorld's recent overview of the SLC, it requires a Sparc | Server or other NFS-supporting server. Sun tells me you can add the hardware to make it standalone. -- bill davidsen - davidsen@sixhub.uucp (uunet!crdgw1!sixhub!davidsen) sysop *IX BBS and Public Access UNIX moderator of comp.binaries.ibm.pc and 80386 mailing list "Stupidity, like virtue, is its own reward" -me
davidsen@sixhub.UUCP (Wm E. Davidsen Jr) (05/31/90)
In article <1990May28.193506.21864@maverick.ksu.ksu.edu> terry@eesun1.eece.ksu.edu (Terry Hull) writes: | Remember, for that price you get BSD UNIX (yea!!) , development | system, TCP/IP, NFS, and SunView for free. Well, $250. That's not quite free when it comes out of my pocket... -- bill davidsen - davidsen@sixhub.uucp (uunet!crdgw1!sixhub!davidsen) sysop *IX BBS and Public Access UNIX moderator of comp.binaries.ibm.pc and 80386 mailing list "Stupidity, like virtue, is its own reward" -me
amull@Morgan.COM (Andrew P. Mullhaupt) (06/01/90)
In article <1057@sixhub.UUCP>, davidsen@sixhub.UUCP (Wm E. Davidsen Jr) writes: > Sun tells me you can add the hardware to make it [an SLC] standalone. What does this add to the price? Later, Andrew Mullhaupt
terry@eesun1.eece.ksu.edu (Terry Hull) (06/02/90)
amull@Morgan.COM (Andrew P. Mullhaupt) writes: >In article <1057@sixhub.UUCP>, davidsen@sixhub.UUCP (Wm E. Davidsen Jr) writes: >> Sun tells me you can add the hardware to make it [an SLC] standalone. >What does this add to the price? It costs about $4000 for a 600 MB disk and 150 MB tape SCSI subsystem. Smaller disk and tape capacities are cheaper. -- Terry Hull Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering, Kansas State University Work: terry@eece.ksu.edu, rutgers!ksuvax1!eecea!terry Play: terry@tah386.manhattan.ks.us, rutgers!ksuvax1!eecea!tah386!terry
paula@bcsaic.UUCP (Paul Allen) (06/06/90)
In article <1990May29.031904.23465@rfengr.com> rfarris@rfengr.com (Rick Farris) writes: ]In article <1990May28.193506.21864@maverick.ksu.ksu.edu> terry@eesun1.eece.ksu.edu (Terry Hull) writes: ] ]> How much does the UNIX run-time, development system, TCP/IP ]> run-time and development system, NFS and X11 add to the ]> price of a '386 machine? ] ]$1,000 in th case of SCO Open Desktop. Admittedly, it's a ]2-user license, but you can't convince me you're going to ]be running the SLC as a server... Why not? It would blow the doors off any 386-based server. Sun sells the SparcStation 1 in a server configuration with disk, but no monitor or keyboard. Since the SLC is basically the same CPU, it should make a decent server for a small network. Since this is getting a little far afield from the purpose of this newsgroup, I think I'll just listen for a while. (Unless someone says something *really* outrageous! :-) ) Paul Allen -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Paul L. Allen | pallen@atc.boeing.com Boeing Advanced Technology Center | ...!uw-beaver!bcsaic!pallen
palowoda@megatest.UUCP (Bob Palowoda) (06/08/90)
From article <1990May25.004135.351@ico.isc.com>, by rcd@ico.isc.com (Dick Dunn): > only if it becomes a "frequently updated answer"! Prices on this stuff > change enough that you'd need a monthly update. (Fortunately, the changes > are almost all downward.) ^^^^^^^^^ > -- > Dick Dunn rcd@ico.isc.com uucp: {ncar,nbires}!ico!rcd (303)449-2870 > ...Simpler is better. Yeah, I wish this could be said about 386 versions of UNIX. Than we might start liveing in a real world. :-) ---Bob -- Bob Palowoda *Home of Fiver BBS* login: bbs Work: {sun,decwrl,pyramid}!megatest!palowoda Home: {sun}ys2!fiver!palowoda (A XBBS System) 2-lines BBS: (415)623-8809 2400/1200 (415)623-8806 1200/2400/9600/19200
richard@pegasus.com (Richard Foulk) (06/08/90)
>]$1,000 in the case of SCO Open Desktop. Admittedly, it's a >]2-user license, but you can't convince me you're going to >]be running the SLC as a server... > >Why not? It would blow the doors off any 386-based server. Sun sells >the SparcStation 1 in a server configuration with disk, but no monitor >or keyboard. Since the SLC is basically the same CPU, it should make >a decent server for a small network. An SLC would probably make an okay server if you didn't need any ports or anything. Remember it doesn't have any slots. Even the slower Sun 3/60 workstation makes a decent server for a small network. Disregarding Novell style bogosities, it doesn't take much horsepower to make a decent Unix network server. Sun usually recommends that you make sure your "compute servers" and workstations be up to speed before worrying about server horsepower. And I'm not sure the SLC would "blow the doors off any 386..." Where'd you get your data? My 33MHz 386 is noticeably faster than a SparcStation 1 on integer only tasks -- I don't think the networking code does much floating point... Granted Sun has had quite a head start at optimizing their networking code, but I think we'll need some real live tests to answer this one. -- Richard Foulk richard@pegasus.com
edhall@rand.org (Ed Hall) (06/09/90)
In article <1990Jun8.083211.22300@pegasus.com> richard@pegasus.com (Richard Foulk) writes: > . . . . >And I'm not sure the SLC would "blow the doors off any 386..." >Where'd you get your data? My 33MHz 386 is noticeably faster than a >SparcStation 1 on integer only tasks -- I don't think the networking >code does much floating point... The SPARCStation, at least, doesn't have an integer multiply instruction (though it does have a ``multiply step'' instruction to make it easy to code a multiplication subroutine). This skews benchmark results, since unlike many benchmarks most system software requires few multiplies except for subscript calculations, and Sun's compiler does a pretty good job of strength-reduction and other tricks to eliminate these. I suspect the SLC is the same. -Ed Hall edhall@rand.org
pjh@mccc.uucp (Pete Holsberg) (06/11/90)
In article <1990Jun8.083211.22300@pegasus.com> richard@pegasus.com (Richard Foulk) writes:
=>]$1,000 in the case of SCO Open Desktop. Admittedly, it's a
=>]2-user license, but you can't convince me you're going to
=>]be running the SLC as a server...
=>
=>Why not? It would blow the doors off any 386-based server. Sun sells
=>the SparcStation 1 in a server configuration with disk, but no monitor
=>or keyboard. Since the SLC is basically the same CPU, it should make
=>a decent server for a small network.
=
=An SLC would probably make an okay server if you didn't need any ports
=or anything. Remember it doesn't have any slots. Even the slower Sun
=3/60 workstation makes a decent server for a small network.
I have no experience with Suns but have wondered what terminals one
would use on a Sun server in order to take advantage of all those nice
windowy things that Sun has. SunView, I think?
Thanks,
Pete
--
Prof. Peter J. Holsberg Mercer County Community College
Voice: 609-586-4800 Engineering Technology, Computers and Math
UUCP:...!princeton!mccc!pjh 1200 Old Trenton Road, Trenton, NJ 08690