morris@dms.UUCP (Jim Morris) (06/12/90)
Well the subject says it:
Did you know that SCO's Open Desktop product is single user only??
I didn't until I bought it and read the license.
What I would like to know is if this is widely known, is anyone else surprised.
Am I dense or did I just miss the bit about 1 login only in all the ODT hype.
A single user unix system is next to useless to me, so I sent ODT back and
ordered ESIX with NFS instead. ( The multi-user version ).
Now I have no problem with SCO selling a single user unix system, other people
do too. What I object to is not being told up front about it.
If I just missed the "Single User" paragraph in the sales blurb I apologise
to SCO, but everyone here who was in on the purchase decision also missed it!
A somewhat dismayed ex-SCO user.
--
Jim Morris. {motcsd|weitek}!dms!morris or morris@dms.UUCP
Voice (408) 434-3798
Atari Games Corporation, 675 Sycamore Drive, Milpitas CA 95035 USA
(Arcade Video Game Manufacturer, NOT Atari Corp. ST manufacturer).bin@primate.wisc.edu (Brain in Neutral) (06/12/90)
From article <1092@dms.UUCP>, by morris@dms.UUCP (Jim Morris): > Well the subject says it: > Did you know that SCO's Open Desktop product is single user only?? > ... > Am I dense or did I just miss the bit about 1 login only in all the ODT hype. Does this mean the system enforces a single login at a time, or that many people can log in at once, but only one person can use ODT on the console? If the former, then thanks for letting us know! If the latter, that's little different from having a workstation where only the person at the keyboard can use X-windows on it. Paul DuBois Internet: dubois@primate.wisc.edu UUCP: rhesus!dubois FAX: 608/263-4031
esd@liebert.uucp (Eric Scott Deese) (06/12/90)
In article <1092@dms.UUCP> morris@dms.UUCP (Jim Morris) writes: >Did you know that SCO's Open Desktop product is single user only?? [ ... ] >What I would like to know is if this is widely known, is anyone else surprised. >Am I dense or did I just miss the bit about 1 login only in all the ODT hype. [ ... ] >If I just missed the "Single User" paragraph in the sales blurb I apologise >to SCO, but everyone here who was in on the purchase decision also missed it! > > A somewhat dismayed ex-SCO user. >-- >Jim Morris. {motcsd|weitek}!dms!morris or morris@dms.UUCP I don't understand this at all. From the very beginning, my understanding has been: SCO Open DeskTop (2 user) $ 1000 SCO Open DeskTop multi-user upgrade $ 1500 SCO Open DeskTop Development System $ 1500 SCO repackaged Elan Eroff $ 800 to 1000 All of this adds up to some really megabucks. It is particularly attractive to me because it comes with Ingres. If you go out and buy Ingres seperately, the price is significantly higher. Your mileage may vary, and if all you want is UNIX + X-windows + multi-user + development + networking, then ESIX (maybe 386/IX) is cheaper. But, ODT does include DOS, Ingres and LAN Manager (I think). These other pieces cost more. Besides, SCO has always charged more for their product. This doesn't suprise me. Eric Deese (osu-cis!liebert!esd)
morris@dms.UUCP (Jim Morris) (06/13/90)
From article <2591@uakari.primate.wisc.edu>, by bin@primate.wisc.edu (Brain in Neutral): > From article <1092@dms.UUCP>, by morris@dms.UUCP (Jim Morris): >> Well the subject says it: >> Did you know that SCO's Open Desktop product is single user only?? >> ... >> Am I dense or did I just miss the bit about 1 login only in all the ODT hype. > > Does this mean the system enforces a single login at a time, or that > many people can log in at once, but only one person can use ODT on the > console? > I didn't install it, if I had broken the seals I would not have got my money back. The license states that only 1 user on a single CPU can use the system. You can run multiple Xterm sessions from the 1 login I would think, but as far as I can tell it does enforce a single login at a time to the Unix system. To get multiple user you must purchase the Open Desktop Server Upgrade for $1495!!! This turns it into a multi user system. I went over the sales Info I have and it appears to me to be a deliberate attempt by SCO marketing to mislead people into buying ODT for $995, then having to shell out another $1495 to get a useable system. As I said I have no problem with single user Unix systems, so long as they advertise it as such. The clever (slimy??) Marketing person who came up with this one is responsible for losing this companies sale. Upto now we have been using SCO xenix and Unix happily for years. But no one likes to be taken for a ride!! Also SCO ODT is not the deal we thought it was. For the same price as a multi-user SCO Unix, TCP/IP & NFS we can get multiuser ESIX and NFS and manuals, and we get the devsys thrown in!! To be honest I am still stunned by this deception, maybe I should cooloff before posting anymore on this subject..... (Naw!) Still perturbed ex-SCO user. -- Jim Morris. {motcsd|weitek}!dms!morris or morris@dms.UUCP Voice (408) 434-3798 Atari Games Corporation, 675 Sycamore Drive, Milpitas CA 95035 USA (Arcade Video Game Manufacturer, NOT Atari Corp. ST manufacturer).
bin@primate.wisc.edu (Brain in Neutral) (06/13/90)
From article <1093@dms.UUCP>, by morris@dms.UUCP (Jim Morris): > The license states that only 1 user on a single CPU can use the system. This sounds like what I would expect: *this* software on *one* machine. If "the system" means "no other logins", then that would be strange, but if "the system" means ODT proper, then that is no different, as I said before from only myself being able to use X-windows on my workstation. Other people can telnet to me, but they can't use the windowing software like I can. This doesn't surprise me. > > You can run multiple Xterm sessions from the 1 login I would think, but > as far as I can tell it does enforce a single login at a time to the > Unix system. Since you didn't try it, you don't know. If ODT *does* keep other logins out, that's bad news. And what would be the point? Maybe someone from SCO would comment? Paul DuBois Internet: dubois@primate.wisc.edu UUCP: rhesus!dubois FAX: 608/263-4031
morris@dms.UUCP (Jim Morris) (06/13/90)
From article <1990Jun12.143516.8764@liebert.uucp>, by esd@liebert.uucp (Eric Scott Deese): > > I don't understand this at all. From the very beginning, my > understanding has been: > ... > SCO Open DeskTop (2 user) $ 1000 > ... Should read: SCO Open DeskTop (1 user) $ 1000 This is my point exactly, in none of my SCO sales literature does it plainly state the above. Although it does state: SCO UNIX System V/386 Operating System (2-user) 595 but for ODT: Open Desktop $995 Open DeskTop Server Upgrade 1,495 Now how am I meant to deduce that one is the Multi-user upgrade to the other?? To be fair in the 20 page document titled "Open Desktop, The complete graphical operating system" on page 8 at the top in a chart it tries to impart this information. I thought information hiding was for OOPL!! Anyway I've bitched enough, thats the end of it. a Getting-over-the-shock still-EX-SCO user. -- Jim Morris. {motcsd|weitek}!dms!morris or morris@dms.UUCP Voice (408) 434-3798 Atari Games Corporation, 675 Sycamore Drive, Milpitas CA 95035 USA (Arcade Video Game Manufacturer, NOT Atari Corp. ST manufacturer).
shwake@raysnec.UUCP (Ray Shwake) (06/13/90)
Yes, promotion of Open Desktop as a $995 ticket to a personal workstation doesn't make it clear that this is a 1-2 user license but we've been in this business a long time and should know how to read fine print, and ask when clarification is required. (I know that two simulataneous users are supported, since I regularly get uucp logins while operating one or more console sessions.) For what's offered, $995 is consistent with pricing practices for the Intel/386 world: fairly expensive given SCO premium pricing but not totally out of line. What irks this writer (speaking personally, of course) is the price for the multi-user upgrade, not to mention the developer upgrade. Interactive's pricing is far more reasonable. The current benchmark for personal workstation pricing is Apple's A/UX 2.0, which regrettably requires a proprietary platform.
erik@westworld.esd.sgi.com (Erik Fortune) (06/14/90)
SCO ODT comes in two-user and (I believe) unlimited user versions. The two user version is a lot less expensive. I have the two user version which means I can have as many console logins as I have virtual screens and a single tty line enabled. I thought this licensing scheme was pretty common -- I've seen ads for 386/ix that list both 2-user and unlimited user prices. Why is this such a problem unless you're planning to run a bboard or set up a department machine? -- Erik (erik@sgi.com) Disclaimer: My employer has nothing to do with any of this. All of this is from memory, so any errors are my fault.
cpcahil@virtech.uucp (Conor P. Cahill) (06/14/90)
In article <8915@odin.corp.sgi.com> erik@westworld.esd.sgi.com (Erik Fortune) writes: >SCO ODT comes in two-user and (I believe) unlimited user versions. The >two user version is a lot less expensive. I have the two user version >which means I can have as many console logins as I have virtual screens >and a single tty line enabled. > >I thought this licensing scheme was pretty common -- I've seen ads for >386/ix that list both 2-user and unlimited user prices. It is common to have a 1-2 user license, but for most of the other products it means that at most 2 peopl can log into the system at the same time reguardless of the number of gettys. This means that I can set up a system with gettys on gettys on /dev/console, /dev/tty00, and /dev/tty01. Users could log into any of the specified devices until I had used up two logins. The way I understand SCO ODT is that you can enable at most 2 gettys (vt gettys being counted as a single getty with the console). Which means that it is a single user system for remote users. >Why is this such a problem unless you're planning to run a bboard >or set up a department machine? It's a pain when you want to have two people log in through the tty port while not using the console. Now you might tell me that I shouldn't get SCO ODT if I don't want to use the console, but that isn't the issue. -- Conor P. Cahill (703)430-9247 Virtual Technologies, Inc., uunet!virtech!cpcahil 46030 Manekin Plaza, Suite 160 Sterling, VA 22170
rogerk@sco.COM (Roger Knopf 5502) (06/15/90)
In article <1095@dms.UUCP> morris@dms.UUCP (Jim Morris) writes: >From article <1990Jun12.143516.8764@liebert.uucp>, by esd@liebert.uucp (Eric Scott Deese): >> >> I don't understand this at all. From the very beginning, my >> understanding has been: >> ... >> SCO Open DeskTop (2 user) $ 1000 >> ... > >Should read: > > SCO Open DeskTop (1 user) $ 1000 Why? Open DeskTop sports an AT&T 2 user license and indeed two users can login. By login, we mean "2 keyboards", ie one user can get as much up on the console as they want and its still one user. The second keyboard can be local, rlogined or telneted, dialed in, etc. -- Roger Knopf <standard disclaimer applies> SCO Consulting Services uunet!sco!rogerk or rogerk@sco.com "...and he's got bare feet, too." 408-425-7222 (voice) 408-458-4227 (fax) --Charley Watkins
danielw@wyn386.mi.org (Daniel Wynalda) (06/15/90)
In article <1990Jun14.122218.18258@virtech.uucp> cpcahil@virtech.UUCP (Conor P. Cahill) writes: > >It is common to have a 1-2 user license, but for most of the other products >it means that at most 2 peopl can log into the system at the same time >reguardless of the number of gettys. > Yes. This is the same reason I haven't purchased it. However, one thing I might have been tempted to do is this: NOT even USE SCO's getty. Has anybody ported uugetty over to SCO ODT? If so, then you could run as many getty's as you want... -- I suppose this might border on abusing the license you purchased but you aren't using anything SCO sold you to do it.?!. >>Why is this such a problem unless you're planning to run a bboard >>or set up a department machine? This is EXACTLY the problem. I would like to TWO login lines I have at home to be available when I am NOT at home. This way I can check mail etc and NO ONE will be on the console. I guess I'm just trying to use a commercial venture for a hobby. SCO has just begun to get too high priced for the user who wants to run it at home.... (It costs 3 TIMES what my hardware (386/20) did to get the system with dev sys etc.!) In my opinion, for the way I use Unix, ODT is useless without compilers and libraries... One last thing. While I realize that SCO's main market is NOT the home user, I refuse to run a different operating system at home than I do at work. I requires TWICE the porting time to get the software I want to run working. Since I already purchased my two copies of Xenix, and they were BOTH unlimited user for ~$1000 with DEV SYS, I think I will stick with it. - After all I have gcc, gas, gawk, gnuplot, TeX, smail, elm, news, and TONS more installed on Xenix now. I rarely interact with the SCO product anyhow. For some reason the Xwindows option doesn't seem worth $3000.00 to replace each system (properly). -- Daniel Wynalda | (616) 866-1561 X22 Ham:N8KUD Net:danielw@wyn386.mi.org Wynalda Litho Inc. | 8221 Graphic Industrial Pk. | Rockford, MI 49341
gary@sci34hub.UUCP (Gary Heston) (06/15/90)
In article <71@raysnec.UUCP> shwake@raysnec.UUCP (Ray Shwake) writes: > [ discusses ISC and SCO pricing ] >Interactive's pricing is far more reasonable. The current benchmark for >personal workstation pricing is Apple's A/UX 2.0, which regrettably requires >a proprietary platform. 1) What do you expect from Apple? 2) The best approach is to look at total system cost, not just the hardware or software. Add up your { favorite 386 box } price, the software you want, and the peripherals. Add up { a Mac of some kind }, A/UX, and Apple compatable peripherals. Estimate support costs for each, and compare. Me? I don't buy or recommend proprietary products of any kind. The support cost is too high. -- Gary Heston { uunet!sci34hub!gary } System Mismanager SCI Technology, Inc. OEM Products Department (i.e., computers) "I think, therefore, !PANIC! illegal protected mode access attempt Memory fault: core dumped (Just installed rn--testing!!)
frank@rsoft.bc.ca (Frank I. Reiter) (06/15/90)
In article <71@raysnec.UUCP> shwake@raysnec.UUCP (Ray Shwake) writes: > >For what's offered, $995 is consistent with pricing practices for the >Intel/386 world: fairly expensive given SCO premium pricing but not totally >out of line. What irks this writer (speaking personally, of course) is the >price for the multi-user upgrade, not to mention the developer upgrade. I'll agree with that sentiment. I'd likely have moved to ODT by now if not for the fact that the COMPLETE package (ODT + Multi-user upgrade + development system) costs not ~$1000 but ~$4000. I've wondered for a while now however if this high price is a reflection of lot's of goodies being included. What is the price, for example, of an unlimited user SCO Unix + Dev sys + XSight ? -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Frank I. Reiter UUCP: {uunet,ubc-cs}!van-bc!rsoft!frank Reiter Software Inc. frank@rsoft.bc.ca, a2@mindlink.UUCP Surrey, British Columbia BBS: Mind Link @ (604)576-1214, login as Guest
morris@dms.UUCP (Jim Morris) (06/16/90)
From article <6785@scorn.sco.COM>, by rogerk@sco.COM (Roger Knopf 5502): > > In article <1095@dms.UUCP> morris@dms.UUCP (Jim Morris) writes: >> .... >> >> SCO Open DeskTop (1 user) $ 1000 > > Why? Open DeskTop sports an AT&T 2 user license and indeed two users > can login. By login, we mean "2 keyboards", ie one user can get as > much up on the console as they want and its still one user. The > second keyboard can be local, rlogined or telneted, dialed in, etc. I am going by what the license says. It specifies One user on one CPU. I agree that it actually lets multiple logins at the console. Are you suggesting we violate your license agreement??? ( :>) ) BTW I am not "MAD" at SCO anymore. I had a nice chat with someone at SCO sales and they convinced me that it is not a deliberate policy to mislead people, but that ODT marketing is directed at people who use workstations as opposed to people looking for a Unix system. The pricing and specs for SCO Unix are very upfront and I see where SCO is coming from on the ODT marketing angle. Unfortunately we still cannot justify paying twice as much for a multi user Unix system, even if SCO is a great outfit !! -- Jim Morris. {motcsd|weitek}!dms!morris or morris@dms.UUCP Voice (408) 434-3798 Atari Games Corporation, 675 Sycamore Drive, Milpitas CA 95035 USA (Arcade Video Game Manufacturer, NOT Atari Corp. ST manufacturer).
bill@twg.UUCP (Bill Irwin) (06/16/90)
In article <6785@scorn.sco.COM> rogerk@sco.COM (Roger Knopf 5502) writes: > >Why? Open DeskTop sports an AT&T 2 user license and indeed two users >can login. By login, we mean "2 keyboards", ie one user can get as >much up on the console as they want and its still one user. The >second keyboard can be local, rlogined or telneted, dialed in, etc. There is something I am still missing here. Are you saying that when someone installs SCO ODT on their system, every login HAS to be into ODT and therefore there can only be two? Or is it like VP/ix, where I can have 10 people logged on the system, but only two running VP/ix at a time? I have a hard time imagining a scenario where I have a corporate Unix system with 10 regular users and one day we decide to buy ODT....install it, and now only two users can get onto the computer at a time!!! Surely this must be a limitation on the number of simultaneous ODT users, not the number of system usres????? -- Bill Irwin - TWG The Westrheim Group - Vancouver, BC, Canada ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ uunet!van-bc!twg!bill (604) 431-9600 (voice) | UNIX Systems Bill.Irwin@twg.UUCP (604) 431-4629 (fax) | Integration
larry@focsys.uucp (Larry Williamson) (06/28/90)
In article <ZE84FVC@xds13.ferranti.com> Peter da Silva writes: > I prefer Merge to VPix, simply because it's easier to install. A package is installed once and used thousands of times. I'd rather a package that was difficult to install and simple to use over one that that was simple to install and difficult to use. Of course, one would be nuts to prefer anything other than simple to install and use! -larry
peter@ficc.ferranti.com (Peter da Silva) (06/28/90)
In article <LARRY.90Jun28085702@focsys.uucp> larry@focsys.uucp (Larry Williamson) writes: > In article <ZE84FVC@xds13.ferranti.com> Peter da Silva writes: > > I prefer Merge to VPix, simply because it's easier to install. > A package is installed once and used thousands of times. Ah, but who is it installed by? If you have one system in house that you're responsible for, and use on a daily basis that's one thing. If you have systems all over the world that have to be maintained by customers that's a whole different ball game. > I'd rather a > package that was difficult to install and simple to use over one that > that was simple to install and difficult to use. I have not noticed any significant difference between the functionality and convenience of the current Merge and VP/ix products. The Merge product maybe has an edge on ease of use if you want something that will be stuck in shell scripts, because so much is settable by command-line switches. For power DOS users, I have no idea. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' +1 713 274 5180. <peter@ficc.ferranti.com>