tek@CS.UCLA.EDU (Ted Kim (ATW)) (01/20/89)
In article <3205@cbnews.ATT.COM> attcan!utzoo!henry@uunet.UU.NET writes: > >Ho ho. The early Sparrow did pretty well on the test ranges too. AMRAAM >is basically an unmitigated disaster: far more complex than Sparrow (and >hence likely to be far less reliable, and definitely far more expensive), >with range not much better than a late-model Sidewinder. > As with almost all new hi-tech weapons, the AMRAAM will have bugs. How serious they are, how long it takes to correct them (if it's possible to correct them in the first place), we won't know until it is really used in combat. It was my impression that the AMRAAM could have flown much earlier, except it was too big for anything except F-14s and F-15s. Making it smaller, caused it to escalate in price dramatically and pushed the whole program back some years. > >It continues to amaze me that nobody is able to figure out that with >closing speeds of at least 1000 knots and often 2000+ -- equating to a >mile every 2-3 seconds -- a beyond-visual-range AAM needs a range more >like 100 miles than 10. Why fire a $300,000 AMRAAM if you're going to >get within range for a $20,000 Sidewinder anyway? Especially when the >Sidewinder is more reliable and more accurate. > I hope you are wrong about the range. I have heard a higher range figure of about 40 miles, but of course it's not an authoritative figure. (Standard caveats about firing envelope versus range apply here.) > >Also, note that an F-14 cannot carry six Phoenixes without being in >"overload" condition, in which most performance specs (including, as I >recall, carrier landings) are void. > I believe the maximum non "overload" configuration is 4 Phoenixes. Ted Kim ARPAnet: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu UCLA Computer Science Department UUCP: ...!ucbvax!cs.ucla.edu!tek 3804C Boelter Hall PHONE: (213) 206-8696 Los Angeles, CA 90024 ESPnet: tek@ouija.board
henry@zoo.toronto.edu (01/23/89)
>As with almost all new hi-tech weapons, the AMRAAM will have bugs. How >serious they are, how long it takes to correct them (if it's possible >to correct them in the first place), we won't know until it is really >used in combat. True. However, what limited predictions we can make, based on its early testing, its complexity, and the extent to which it pushes the state of the art, are *not* encouraging. And there is no dispute that it is far more expensive than the weapons it supposedly will replace, and hence will be available in far smaller numbers. >It was my impression that the AMRAAM could have flown much earlier, >except it was too big for anything except F-14s and F-15s. Making it >smaller, caused it to escalate in price dramatically and pushed the >whole program back some years. Agreed, miniaturization was a big problem. The F-14/F-15-sized AMRAAM has existed for quite a while: it's called Phoenix. And, surprise surprise, it's grossly expensive and has serious reliability problems. >>... a beyond-visual-range AAM needs a range more >>like 100 miles than 10... > >I hope you are wrong about the range. I have heard a higher range >figure of about 40 miles... At least one of the Sparrow variants has that sort of range, and there have been proposals for Sparrows with ranges approaching 100 miles. AMRAAM range is rather shorter, of the order of the "10 miles" that I quoted, like the shorter-ranged Sparrow variants. I am told that combat simulations have suggested that AMRAAM will seldom be fired much outside visual range. The only major advantage AMRAAM offers over a further-developed Sidewinder is that it's rather less sensitive to weather, since it's radar-guided. However, it doesn't lock its radar onto the target until it has closed in considerably. I have thought for quite a while that AMRAAM would probably be in service by now, and be considered very successful, if its terminal homing system was a Sidewinder infrared seeker rather than active radar. That would certainly make it lighter, more reliable, and much cheaper. Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu