dave@questar.QUESTAR.MN.ORG (David Becker) (06/07/89)
From: dave@questar.QUESTAR.MN.ORG (David Becker)
With the networks giddily(no news like blood and guts) passing on the rumor
that 27th army may be about to take on the 38th army, could someone describe
for this newsgroup the organization, manning and equipment of China's military?
McNiel/Lehrer interviewed a Navy advisor on China. She descibed the
27th army as loyal to China's President (apparently due to the number
of relatives he put in top posts). The President is a hard liner and
seems to have used this army for the weekend massacre.
The 38th is Beijing's normal garrison as far as I could understand and
loyal to a different top government figure. The big rumor coming from
diplomats in the Embassy row area of town is that the 27th is digging
in in that area and the 38th may be coming.
>From the news reports this division of loyalty seems to be a long time
part of the PLA's structure. Is this impression correct?
Now what readers of this group will really want to see is wild
speculation on what an urban battle between the two armies would be
like.
Just heard on Nightline: 27th is composed of 3 divisions of 7 or 8
thousand men
--
David Becker
and another bug bites, and another bug bites another bug bites the dust
db@kolonel.MN.ORGsml@beaver.cs.washington.edu (Stuart Lewis) (06/08/89)
From: ssc-vax!sml@beaver.cs.washington.edu (Stuart Lewis) In article <7198@cbnews.ATT.COM>, dave@questar.QUESTAR.MN.ORG (David Becker) writes: > > > >From the news reports this division of loyalty seems to be a long time > part of the PLA's structure. Is this impression correct? > I just heard this a.m. from C.B.S. radio that the various armies are still closely structured after the old fuedal, war-lord type of organization with each army particularly loyal to their provicial or geographic region and each armies commanders garner a great deal of power and influence. They also may or may not carry out orders if they think they are powerful enough to buck them (obviously so, since this has already happened). Another interesting note I picked up from CNN a few days ago: since the Bejing army refused to march on the students, the task was given to the 27th - the Mongolian army. The belief is that they (the hard line authority), is using race differences to play the one army off against the protesters - the Mongolians generally do not care for the rest of the country to the south of their province [remember, this is just the news I heard, not necc'ly my opinions]. Backing up this belief is the fact that it was this army that was sent to Tibet a little while back to put down the Monks and seperatists. There are very distinct racial and cultural differences throughout China. Think about, say, an army in the U.S. southwest composed entirely of American Indians being sent against an army in the northest - or a black army unit going against a white army - interesting political strategy. > Now what readers of this group will really want to see is wild > speculation on what an urban battle between the two armies would be > like. > > -- > David Becker > and another bug bites, and another bug bites another bug bites the dust > db@kolonel.MN.ORG What wild speculation? Ever heard of Stalingrad? Or, more recently but on a smaller scale, Hue? Urban warfare is a meat grinder that goes from block to block, building to building, and even room to room (again, think Stalingrad or the Russians siege of Berlin). This type of warfare was fairly commonplace during the Korean War during the UN's march north, up the peninsula - not so much during the retreat back south from the Chinese; they were too occupied just trying to keep ahead of the onslaught. I don't believe the situation will get that bad though - my guess is that the 27th will lay day their arms given the alternative. Stuart Lewis ssc-vax!sml
SKI%RICE.BITNET@rutgers.edu (David Palkowski) (06/09/89)
From: SKI%RICE.BITNET@rutgers.edu (David Palkowski) It may be also interesting to note that the 27th army is normally stationed on the Vietnamese border, and as such, has had prior experience killing women and children. (NO FLAMES PLEASE - our GI's in 'nam faced a similar dilemma by knowing that at any time ANYBODY could come at you with a mind to kill !) My point is that these troops of the 27th experience was perhaps exploited by the hardliners in BeJing (North Capitol) in an attempt to disband the demonstrators via terrorizing force. Personally, I think they've failed miserably. ------- David Palkowski Jr. ICSA/Rice University
eli%zgavva@uunet.UU.NET (Elias Israel) (06/10/89)
From: Elias Israel <eli%zgavva@uunet.UU.NET> In article <7247@cbnews.ATT.COM> ssc-vax!sml@beaver.cs.washington.edu (Stuart Lewis) writes: >I just heard this a.m. from C.B.S. radio that the various armies are >still closely structured after the old fuedal, war-lord type of >organization with each army particularly loyal to their provicial or >geographic region and each armies commanders garner a great deal of >power and influence. They also may or may not carry out orders if >they think they are powerful enough to buck them (obviously so, >since this has already happened). What little information I have suggests that this "arrangement" dates back as far as the period known as "the Warring States", which began in 453 B.C. Also, the notion that Military commanders need not necessarily obey the orders of the monarch dates back to about the same period and comes from the work of Sun Tzu, a subtle and brilliant strategist who wrote in _The Art of War_: "Your servant has already received your appointment as Commander and when the commander is at the head of the army he need not accept all the sovereign's orders" According to Sun Tzu, it was the task of the Politicians to rule the state, but the task of the Army to defend it and they must do so with absolutely final authority. (Contrast this with our own government which has insisted in the past in choosing targets for the military and generally interfering in the conduct of wars.) Elias Israel | "Justice, n. A commodity which in more or Interactive Systems Corp. | less adulterated condition the State sells Boston, MA | to the citizen as a reward for his allegiance, ..!ima!haddock!eli | taxes, and personal service." | -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_