amoss%batata.Huji.AC.IL%CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (Amos Shapira) (06/09/89)
From: Amos Shapira <amoss%batata.Huji.AC.IL%CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
The German "victories" did count aircraft ON the ground, but also marked
those as such.
However, even THIS claim is inaplicable to Maj. Eric Hartman. True, the
Russian airforce was decimated... in the first 2 weeks of the war. Hartman
started fighting on October 9, 1942 (after finishing training). First claim
was on November 7. During his first 100(!) sorties, he shot down only 7
Reds. After 100 more, his score was 34 (July 1943). On the 20th of September,
1943 he reached 100 victories. His last victory was on the 8th of May, 1945
over Brunn.
As for British claims, which were VASTLY exagerated, Top scorer was Pattle
with (?) 40+.
Score list (top three, all counties):
Britain
J. Pattle 40+
JE Johnson 33.91 (38)
B. Finucane 32
(Pattle- South African, Johnson- British, Finucane- Irish)
US of A
R. I. Bong 40
T. B. McGuire 38
D. S. McCampbell 34
(Bong and McGuire - 5th AF, McCampbell- USN)
Japan
T. Iwamoto 80 (+14 China)
H. Nishizawa 87
S. Sugita 70
(All Japanese claims are uncertain as the authorities destroyed records
in order to reduce "one-upmanship").
Russia
I. N. Kozhedub 62
A. I. Pokryshkin 59
G. A. Rechkalov 56
Finland
E. I. Juutilainen 92
H. H. Wind 78
E. A. Luukkanen 53.5
[mod.note: I understand that at least one Finnish "high ace", perhaps
one of these three, got the bulk of his kills flying an F2A Brewster
Buffalo. Can anyone comfirm ? - Bill ]
German
E. Hartman 352
G. Barkhorn 301
G. Rall 275
A note on scoring: The british, french, US, and Italian (which I did not
include for the obvoius reasons) were VERY simple- EVERYONE who fired
(participated) at a german plane which ostensibly fell, got a partial score
(in some cases, mainly in Britain, they got FULL score). German pilots, on
the other hand, received a "kill" only for a CONFIRMED crash. Enemy planes
shot down by more than one pilot were scored to the unit ONLY, never the pilot.
I am not sertain about the Russian system, but then I am from Russia, and am
prejudiced.
The Finns emulated the German system, as far as they were able.
In Japan (as in Britain, France and Italy) a plane which was damaged was
sometimes counted "killed". Thus, Japanese scores are inflated (assumption).
In Britain, the "killed"/"damaged"/"forced to land" scoring system existed,
with the actual decision reserved to the unit commnader, making the scoring
rather flexible.
Quiz: Who was the highest scoring fighter pilot on the WESTERN/AFRICAN
front ONLY?
Marc A. Volovic, Sgt. (res)fiddler@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) (06/13/89)
From: fiddler@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) > From: Amos Shapira <amoss%batata.Huji.AC.IL%CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> > > The German "victories" did count aircraft ON the ground, but also marked > those as such. > [...various top scores in WW2...] > Finland > E. I. Juutilainen 92 > H. H. Wind 78 > E. A. Luukkanen 53.5 > > [mod.note: I understand that at least one Finnish "high ace", perhaps > one of these three, got the bulk of his kills flying an F2A Brewster > Buffalo. Can anyone comfirm ? - Bill ] James Gilbert's "World's Worst Aircraft" has a chapter on the Brewster Buffalo (appropriately). It was *really* an inferior aircraft. It was heavily armored, underpowered, and lightly armed. Some were based at Singapore (for a while you could sell just about any fighter aircraft at all to various European air forces), and the first notice that people there had that a Japanese air raid was on the way was that the last two Buffalos had taken off and were flying in the *opposite* direction. (Eventually only one was left, and it was taken to Japan for testing...) All 154 RAF Buffalos in Malaya in 1941 were destroyed within three months. Everyone else hated them...but the Finns. They got an earlier version, nearly a ton lighter than what the rest got, with a better engine. Also, the Brewster's main...well, one of its main...failing, overheating, was not so much of a problem in Finland. E.A. Luukkanen's book "Fighter over Finland" covers his experience flying the Buffalo against Russian air force opponents. (Fighter over Finland, Macdonald, 1963)
hhm@ihlpy.ATT.COM (Mayo) (06/13/89)
From: hhm@ihlpy.ATT.COM (Mayo) > The German "victories" did count aircraft ON the ground, but also marked > those as such. The use of the term "victory" is used by many of the aces in deference to, and respect for their former enemies. The term "kill" is repellent to many of them. Ground shooting of aircraft may have been officially permitted, but whether it was practiced is the question. I don't recall any such quota of ground destroyed aircraft credited to any of the scores of the major German aces. Several of the aces including Galland, Rall and Hartmann regularly come to the U.S. as guests at ticket dinners where they answer questions. Talking to them soon gives one the idea that many of the so-called experts on the Luftwaffe are incorrect on many points. Larry Mayo
welty@lewis.crd.ge.com (richard welty) (06/14/89)
From: welty@lewis.crd.ge.com (richard welty)
In article <7285@cbnews.ATT.COM>, Amos Shapira writes:
=US of A
= R. I. Bong 40
= T. B. McGuire 38
= D. S. McCampbell 34
=
= (Bong and McGuire - 5th AF, McCampbell- USN)
=A note on scoring: The british, french, US, and Italian (which I did not
=include for the obvoius reasons) were VERY simple- EVERYONE who fired
=(participated) at a german plane which ostensibly fell, got a partial score
=(in some cases, mainly in Britain, they got FULL score). German pilots, on
=the other hand, received a "kill" only for a CONFIRMED crash.
I got the distinct impression from a book i read recently (_Guadalcanal:
Decision at Sea_) that certain victories for US pilots in the Pacific were
only scored if the aircraft were seen going into the water; otherwise
they got `probables' or no score at all.
it seemed like most of the confusion in scores comes from multiple claims
by AA crews on various vessels in task forces.
richard
(by the way, _Guadalcanal: Decision at Sea_ is a very good book,
and i hope to post a review in the near future.)
--
richard welty welty@lewis.crd.ge.com welty@algol.crd.ge.com
518-387-6346, GE R&D, K1-5C39, Niskayuna, New York
``but officer, i was only speeding so i'd get home before i ran out of gas''kluksdah@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (Norman C. Kluksdahl) (06/16/89)
From: kluksdah@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (Norman C. Kluksdahl) In article <7434@cbnews.ATT.COM>, welty@lewis.crd.ge.com (richard welty) writes: > In article <7285@cbnews.ATT.COM>, Amos Shapira writes: > > = The british, french, US, and Italian were VERY simple- EVERYONE who fired > =(participated) at a german plane which ostensibly fell, got a partial score > > it seemed like most of the confusion in scores comes from multiple claims > by AA crews on various vessels in task forces. > And then there is the confusion over kills by gunners in US bombers. (ref: "Flying Forts" by Martin Caiden, among other books). At first, the gunners were eager to claim anything they fired at which fell as a kill. With a formation of dozens of bombers (early in the efforts of the 8th), there were many 'duplicate' kills, sufficiently so that the rules were very severly revised. Jokes sprang up to the effect that claiming a kill was next to impossible. Somewhere (a museum? CAF museum?) I saw a comic poster, which had a waist gunner watching an enemy plane break up. The other waist gunner asked if he was going to claim a kill--the reply, no, he didn't see it hit the ground. ********************************************************************** Norman Kluksdahl Arizona State University ..ncar!noao!asuvax!enuxha!kluksdah alternate: kluksdah@enuxc1.eas.asu.edu standard disclaimer implied