nrv@ulysses.UUCP (N. Richard Venditto) (02/09/84)
It has been a while and many of you are probably wondering how the State of New Jersey v. Venditto turned out. Score 1 for K-55 radar, 0 for defense. First I would like to thank all of you who contributed information to the cause. You provided the support and encouragement I needed to give it a shot so to speak. Though I lost the case I did learn quite a bit in the process, some of which may be useful to some of you in the future. 1 Do not alienate the officer issuing the summons, but try to be polite and friendly. He may let you off with a warning. In my case I refrained from any hostile comments until after the ticket was in my hands. WRONG THING TO DO! If I had been friendly with the officer after receiving the ticket he might have been more receptive to my plea bargaining attempt in court to lower the convicted speed 3 MPH. This would have made a difference on my permanent driving record. Both judge and prosecuting attorney would have obliged this request, but the officer would not. 2 Ask the officer politely to see the reading on the speed device, and if you dare, ask him to check its calibration as you watch. If the calibration test fails, you're off the hook. If it doesn't fail you still have some hope, though somewhat less than before. 3 If the device is the K-55 radar and you live in N J your chances are bleak. The State of N J, in the interest of justice, conducted a hearing to prove the accuracy of the K-55 device (this can be found in vol. 170 of the N J Superior Court Reports). Essentially they outlined under what circumstances the device can be considered accurate and acceptable evidence. The police and the prosecution are familiar with this case. In addition, MPH Industries, the manufacturer of the K-55, provide the service of practically insuring convictions for the police departments that buy their equipment by providing proper training for the officers (as required by the hearing in vol. 170) and probably the script used by the prosecution in presenting its case. They covered all possible loopholes in the law. 4 The K-55 can be discredited if: a) the officer was in moving mode, either coming towards you or following b) there is traffic in the area with your car, especially trucks or other large vehicles. 5 If the device is other than K-55 you have a chance, though it might require the hiring of an expert witness to testify on your behalf. Only a few specific types of radar have been examined by the state courts. 6 Remember that you are dealing with the legal system and you must change your way of thinking. What seems right is not always admissible evidence. What seems unfair may very well be but without some hard facts the court cannot do anything about it. The system itself can provide you with your defense if you research the legal collections of large library. You should concentrate on the cases tried by the state court, with the most recent having the most impact. 7 For those with the resources and the determination to appeal if necessary: if the officer presents no evidence that suggests he thought you were speeding prior to the reading on the radar, then according to the 4th amendment right to freedom from unreasonable search, he had no probable cause to aim the radar at you in the first place, and any evidence gained by such action would be inadmissible (maybe). Good luck to all of you in your private pursuit of justice, and thanks again. Rich Venditto (ulysses!nrv)
leichter@yale-com.UUCP (Jerry Leichter) (02/10/84)
Another recommendation, for what it's worth; this one comes from Roy Cohen (in his book "How to Fight For Your Rights (and Win)": The cop you are dealing with also deals with many other similar cases all the time. He will have trouble remembering the details of any one case unless something about that case makes it stand out. (It will be a while before the case comes to trial.) So...make your encounter with the cop as short and "usual" as possible. DON'T argue, don't apologize; just accept the ticket and get out of there. When your day in court arrives, there will basically be two stories: Yours and cop's. If yours is specific and has a lot of details, it will be more believable than a vague tale of non-specific wrong-doing on the cop's part; you will have a better chance of carrying the day. This advice is NOT meant to encourage anyone to lie. (Cohen is quite explicit in stating this, but then he has to; if he were to encourage perjury openly, he'd be disbarred. Me, I am under no such legal constraint; I don't encourage lying because it's wrong. It is just a fact of life, however, that the best strategy for the innocent is often also a helpful strategy for the guilty.) -- Jerry decvax!yale-comix!leichter leichter@yale
mrh@aluxz.UUCP (HUDOCK) (02/10/84)
IF YOUR GUILTY PAY THE FINE.
david@tekig.UUCP (02/13/84)
If you are not guilty, you will pay the fine also, brainwave. I think that is the point that is being made. tektronix!tekig!david
kwmc@hou5d.UUCP (K. W. M. Cochran) (02/21/84)
> If you are not guilty, you will pay the fine also, brainwave. > > I think that is the point that is being made. > > tektronix!tekig!david Is this the case? How many people in net-land have been prosecuted for speeding at 65mph say, when they really were doing only 55 ? I really don't think many of us worry about being stopped for speeding when we are not speeding. Ken Cochran hou5d!kwmc
seifert@ihuxl.UUCP (D.A. Seifert) (02/22/84)
> I really don't think many of us worry about being stopped for speeding > when we are not speeding. > Ken Cochran hou5d!kwmc Call us when you wake up. In actual fact, the pigs ticket anyone they feel like. I rather dislike driving along at a legal speed, along with several other cars and getting pulled over and being given a speeding ticket supposedly based on radar (which wasn't even on, but try and prove that in court!). The judges are of course in on it, so there's no point in even trying to fight it, unless you're F.Lee Bailey, or someone. (Yes, I've tried! That's how I know!) Radar is for making money. Pure and simple. Tired of living in a police state that has the nerve to call itself 'free'. Maybe it's not as bad as Russia, big deal! -- _____ /_____\ "Happiness is a warm puppy" /_______\ Snoopy |___| ____|___|_____ ihnp4!ihuxl!seifert
wetcw@pyuxa.UUCP (T C Wheeler) (02/23/84)
Why do I have this feeling that Mr Seifert is not telling us the whole story? What was he doing BEFORE he joined up with the other cars? Was he perhaps changing lanes in an erratic manner? Did he give the high sign to the policeman? I think there is more to this story than meets the eye. If the police needed to hand out a ration of tickets, they would hardly have to pick on someone travelling the speed limit. There are just too many drivers going faster than that to worry about some poor soul bopping along at the speed limit. No, I find the story a little bit hard to swallow. T. C. Wheeler
mickey@cca.UUCP (Merrill Levine) (02/24/84)
I'm sure there's more than one, but as the passenger of a driver whose wife was pregnant and REFUSED to drive over 55, we got pulled over in one of Mass. infamous gang bangs (one radar, 5-10 chase cars). When my friend protested that there was NO WAY IN H*LL that he was over 55, the cop only gave him a warning. We were both upset that he even got the warning, but we were getting late for an engagement. Yes, the innocent DO pay for driving 55 when nabbed by radar.
seifert@ihuxl.UUCP (D.A. Seifert) (02/24/84)
> Why do I have this feeling that Mr Seifert is not telling us the whole > story? What was he doing BEFORE he joined up with the other cars? Was > he perhaps changing lanes in an erratic manner? Did he give the high > sign to the policeman? I think there is more to this story than meets > the eye. If the police needed to hand out a ration of tickets, they > would hardly have to pick on someone travelling the speed limit. There > are just too many drivers going faster than that to worry about some poor soul > bopping along at the speed limit. No, I find the story a little bit > hard to swallow. > T. C. Wheeler No I wasn't changing lanes (2 lane street). Or doing anything unusual at all. Just cruising along. Same speed as the cars in front and back of me. Pig pulls in behind me and turns lights on. I pull over. The car in front of me also pulls over (!?). Pig walks up and tells driver of other car he can go, then gives me ticket. Question: the whole group was driving at the same speed, so why didn't car in front of me get a ticket, especially since he pulled over expecting one? He wasn't just picking out the obvious high performance cars to ticket, the car in front of me happened to be a yellow Corvette. (Verses a mild-mannered looking dark sedan) He must have had an axe to grind against foreign cars. Doesn't matter if they grab people actually speeding or not, radar is so accepted in courts, all the pig has to do is say "I clocked him/her on radar" and the "Judge" says "Guilty". In this case his radar WASN'T EVEN ON! The escort never peeped. But who do you think they are going to believe in court? Just mentioning that you have a radar detector is going to label you 'guilty'. Still tired of living in a police state. -- _____ /_____\ Have you hugged your beagle today? /_______\ Snoopy |___| ____|___|_____ ihnp4!ihuxl!seifert
lsk@ltuxa.UUCP (KAUFMAN) (02/24/84)
I admit that since moving to Illinois I have seen more radar on local roads than ever before, including in New Jersey after the great "radar buy"; but to say "I rather dislike driving along at a legal speed, along with several other cars and getting pulled over . . . ." is a bit much. Assuming this referred to local police, I will admit they LOVE to get you on local roads that have posted 25 mph or 30 mph limits and should be 45 mph (pardon the local reference: Ogden Ave, Woodridge Dr, and Janes Ave come to mind); but I have gone past many a local radar at five miles over the limit and had no problem. Indeed, I talked a Downers Grove policeman into giving me a warning for going 40 in a 30 mile zone, when, in fact, I was going 48 mph. I honestly thought the limit was 45. He wrote up the warning for 40 because anything above 10 miles over the limit could NOT get a warning. (Local note again: this is only true in Downers, I discovered). And what is the trick to talking your way out of that situation? a) be polite b) sincerely apologize c) promise to never do it again d) keep him/her talking for at least 15 minutes I suspect some people on this net wouldn't know how to do any of the above (especially when it comes to police). =larry AT&T Technologies
tackett@wivax.UUCP (Raymond Tackett) (02/24/84)
I can readily believe Seifert's story. I had a friend go to court over a ticket for speeding "55 in a 55 zone"(!). This was alleged to be too fast for conditions. Conditions were wall to wall traffic, all moving at 55. My friend's car was the only one in sight from New Hampshire. All the others were M*ssholes. -- /////\\\\\ \ \ / / From the brightly colored, ever opening 'chute \ / of NOID Ray Tackett
emma@uw-june (02/25/84)
Actually, I know of at least one case where the wrong guy got a ticket based on radar-- I'd just passed him. He got my ticket. -Joe P.
brad@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Brad Spear) (02/29/84)
In article <931@ihuxl.UUCP> seifert@ihuxl.UUCP (D.A. Seifert) writes: > >No I wasn't changing lanes (2 lane street). Or doing anything >unusual at all. Just cruising along. Same speed as the cars in >front and back of me. Pig pulls in behind me and turns lights >on. I pull over. The car in front of me also pulls over (!?). >Pig walks up and tells driver of other car he can go, then gives >me ticket. > . . . >He wasn't just picking out the obvious high performance cars to >ticket, the car in front of me happened to be a yellow Corvette. >(Verses a mild-mannered looking dark sedan) He must have had >an axe to grind against foreign cars. > . . . You say the car in front of you pulled over? How close were you to his rear bumper? Were you one of the people advocating tailgating if a left-lane hog didn't move over? I don't like left-lane hogs either, but thats another subject. I find it rather hard to believe that out of all the cars on the road, including the Corvette, the cop would pick non-descript little you to pick on without some reason. Brad Spear sdcrdcf!brad
seifert@ihuxl.UUCP (D.A. Seifert) (03/05/84)
>No I wasn't changing lanes (2 lane street). Or doing anything >unusual at all. Just cruising along. Same speed as the cars in D >front and back of me. Pig pulls in behind me and turns lights a >on. I pull over. The car in front of me also pulls over (!?). v >Pig walks up and tells driver of other car he can go, then gives e >me ticket. > . . . >He wasn't just picking out the obvious high performance cars to >ticket, the car in front of me happened to be a yellow Corvette. >(Verses a mild-mannered looking dark sedan) He must have had >an axe to grind against foreign cars. > . . . You say the car in front of you pulled over? How close were you to B his rear bumper? Were you one of the people advocating tailgating r if a left-lane hog didn't move over? I don't like left-lane hogs a either, but thats another subject. d I find it rather hard to believe that out of all the cars on the road, including the Corvette, the cop would pick non-descript little you to pick on without some reason. Brad Spear sdcrdcf!brad No I was *not* "one of those people" advocating tailgating left-lane hogs. And if you would *read* the stuff you're quoting, it WAS A TWO LANE ROAD. There was no left lane to be hogged. And NO, I wasn't tailgating him at all. Or making noise, or weaving around, OR ANYTHING! And no, there aren't any bumper stickers, political, cute, or otherwise, on my car. And I didn't signal anything, to anyone. Anymore questions, Mr. Prosecutor? Yes, I find it rather hard to believe also. That's what scares me. What do you call a country where the police/military go around harrassing people who haven't done anything wrong? I call it a police state. It hasn't happened to you? Lucky you! [enter using his own tricks against him mode] Were you "one of those people" who said the women who get raped "had it coming to them" ???? That perhaps they did something 'wrong', like walking down the street, or even sitting in their house/apt without a bodyguard? [Wrap up with an axiom everyone will agree with] Whatever happened to "innocent until proven quilty" ???? Good day. -- _____ /_____\ Have you hugged your beagle today? /_______\ Snoopy |___| ____|___|_____ ihnp4!ihuxl!seifert
an@hou2h.UUCP (A.NGUYEN) (03/18/84)
-- It is MUCH easier for a policeman to write a ticket than it is for the hapless motorist to go to court to defend himself, and the police seem to be EXTREMELY well aware of that. They KNOW that the typical motorist will just curse a lot and send in his money, EVEN if he has a chance at a good day in court. Why? Because the poor bastard ain't got the time, knowledge, or money to make a court appearance! How many of you would take a day off, at say $100 a day, to go to court and fight an $40 ticket? How many traffic violation cases actually go to court? Damned few, I'm sure! Au "I hate Instant_Balanced_Budgets" Nguyen
mat@hou5d.UUCP (03/20/84)
> It is MUCH easier for a policeman to write a ticket than it is for > the hapless motorist to go to court to defend himself, and the > police seem to be EXTREMELY well aware of that. They KNOW that the > typical motorist will just curse a lot and send in his money, EVEN > if he has a chance at a good day in court. Why? Because the poor > bastard ain't got the time, knowledge, or money to make a court > appearance! How many of you would take a day off, at say $100 a > day, to go to court and fight an $40 ticket? How many traffic > violation cases actually go to court? Damned few, I'm sure! A story here: everyone knows that New York City is murder on the person who does not move his car in time. The car can be towed, damaging the car, to the pound where you must pay upwards of $100 to get it out. The pound is in one of the worst traffic bottlenecks in the city, and ... Of course, they never tow the bastid who is double parked and causing a jam, but every day, at every alternate-side-of-the-street-parking time switch, about twenty seconds after the last tick of the clock, hoards of brown-suited traffic control officers pour forth to ticket and tow cars. If you got a phone call, if you were in bed with someone, if you had a sudden attack of diarrhea, it doesn't matter. Tow We Must, For a Better New York. Well, I knew a fellow whose car was ticketed (but not towed) by a cop who used the clock visible in the window of a bank. He was ticketed at one minute after the hour. The bank clock was two minutes ahead, and the fellow took a letter (statement, affidavit?) from the branch manager to night court to fight the ticket. And he won. Since it was night court, he didn't have to take time out from work, either! Mark Terribile hou5d!mat
jrr@ganehd.UUCP (Randy Romines) (03/27/84)
I was stopped once when the speedometer said I was going 55. My wife would confirm it, because she looked at it just before he hit his lights. It turned out that my speedometer was off by 17 mph ( I had it checked ) when it said 55. I believe it was because of the tires that I had on it and it was old, 12 years with 150K+ miles. Randy Romines ...!akgua!ganehd!jrr