t32726k@kaira.hut.fi (Timo Kiravuo) (06/15/89)
From: t32726k@kaira.hut.fi (Timo Kiravuo) In article <7201@cbnews.ATT.COM> military@att.att.com (Bill Thacker) writes: > The best way to take out a tank is with fire. You can asphyxiate the > engine, the crew, or both, or just force the crew to bail out. Molotov > cocktails probably top the list, In the Winter War (winter 1939-1949) against the Soviet Union Finland faced a situation where we had nothing to fight tanks with. So one had to use what was available. Molotov coctail was the most famous solution. For some reason there never seems to be any shortage of empty liquor bottles in Finland :-) so those were filled with a mixture gasoline, turpentine and some other chemicals, to be slightly sticky. Then a long-burning match (called bengal stick or something like that) was attached. When used the stick was lighted and the bottle thrown behind the turret. The burning liquids would then light the grease and dirt in the engine compartment and light the tank. This should be basically correct. [mod.note: While skimming (i.e., reading without paying for 8-) ) a "Defense International" magazine last night, I noticed a picture of an Israeli Defense Force Merkaval. The rear turret overhang (quite prominent on this tank) had been fitted with a "fringe" of metal balls dangling on chains, which reached almost to the deck; while I've never seen this before, and no explanation was offered in the article, I think this must be to prevent thrown grenades, etc, from entering the area beneath the turret overhang. Clever... - Bill ] I recall having read that this worked fine on older tanks, but towards the end of WWII tanks got better and did not burn that easily. Another weapon was a plain charge consisting of a couple on kilos of TNT attached to wooden handle and delay fuse. This was used to cut the tracks or was placed next to the turret. A fuse long enough allowed you to throw it from a blind spot and then let the tank pass, until a while later - bang. There are also stories about men derailing tanks with logs. A meter long birch log apparently is very effective when you thrust it between the wheels. More unbelievable are stories about men jumping on a tank from behind and actually knocking on the hatch. The tank commander would then open the hatch and look out, thus enabling our guy to toss a grenade or two inside. I know that my fellow coutrymen are liable to do the weirdest things, but this is a bit thick. Might have happened, still. They gave you a leave for busting a tank. According to those stories I have heard about fighting tanks with DIY weapons, the hardest part was waiting. You have to hide and let that noisy monster almost on top of you before you move... And then get away from your own bang in time, depending on what you are using. However it is known that the poorly equipped Finnish army managed to keep the entire Red Army out of Finland during the World War two. The Soviets had planned to take Finland over in a week or two, a month at tops. In the Winter War the attacking Soviet troops had parade clothes and marching bands with them for the victory parade. Didn't quite work the way they planned... -- Timo Kiravuo work:90-451 4328 home:90-6776 076 Helsinki University of Technology, Computing Center kiravuo@hut.fi kiravuo@fingate.bitnet
jmt@ecsvax.uncecs.edu.UUCP (06/16/89)
From: jmt@ecsvax.uncecs.edu.UUCP Timo Kiravuo writes >However it is known that the poorly equipped Finnish army managed ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >to keep the entire Red Army out of Finland during the World War >two. The Soviets had planned to take Finland over in a week or To quote John Weeks (Men Against Tanks, Mason Charter, 1975) "In Finland there was a departure from the norm, for in this tiny country and in this one alone had an anti-tank rifle of respectable size appeared. This was the Lahti, derived from an aircraft machine-gun of the same name. The Lahti was 20mm and could be fired either semiautomatic or automatic;...How many of these superbly built guns took part in the 1939 Winter War is not known, but some at least played their part in holding off the Soviet armoured threat...(p.34)" In regards to anti-tank rifles the Finnish army seems to have been *well* equipped. Still, this does not diminish the courage of the men who were willing to fire a rifle at a tank. -Jerry M. Trott jmt@ecsvax.uncecs.edu.UUCP [mod.note: Still, a 20mm ATR is a marginal antitank weapon; bear in mind that other nations were relying on 37-45mm AT guns for tank defense, and even these were soon shown inadequate. Weeks is also in error, as the Swiss had developed the 20mm Solothurn antitank rifle, which was sold to several nations. The Japanese, too, had a 20mm ATR. - Bill ]
fiddler@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) (06/16/89)
From: fiddler@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) In article <7475@cbnews.ATT.COM>, t32726k@kaira.hut.fi (Timo Kiravuo) writes: > > Molotov coctail was the most famous solution. For some reason > there never seems to be any shortage of empty liquor bottles in > Finland :-) so those were filled with a mixture gasoline, > turpentine and some other chemicals, to be slightly sticky. Then Usually something like soap flakes. Leaves you with something very like napalm.
gahooten@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Greg A. Hooten) (06/17/89)
From: gahooten@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Greg A. Hooten) In article <7512@cbnews.ATT.COM> jmt@ecsvax.uncecs.edu.UUCP writes: >equipped. Still, this does not diminish the courage of the men who were > >[mod.note: >Weeks is also in error, as the Swiss had developed the 20mm Solothurn >antitank rifle, which was sold to several nations. The Japanese, >too, had a 20mm ATR. - Bill ] Wasn't the British Boys ATR of 20mm also? I seem to remember rumors of it being for sale just after or just before WWII along with the Thompson SMG. Any other better memories than mine? GAH! [mod.note: The Boys was .55in, or 14mm. The German ATR's (panzerbu:schen) were in 7.92mm, and the Russians were fond of 14.5mm. The Polish Maroszcek was also in 7.92mm. - Bill ]
kiravuo@kampi.hut.fi (Timo Kiravuo) (06/20/89)
From: kiravuo@kampi.hut.fi (Timo Kiravuo) In article <7512@cbnews.ATT.COM> jmt@ecsvax.uncecs.edu.UUCP writes: >"In Finland there was a departure from the norm, for in this tiny country >and in this one alone had an anti-tank rifle of respectable size >appeared. ... How many of these superbly built guns took >part in the 1939 Winter War is not known, but some at least played their >part in holding off the Soviet armoured threat...(p.34)" I do not know if the Lahti 20mm rifle (also known as "elephant gun") was in mass production at the Winter War Time. However as far as I know there were not enough of those to repel the Soviets alone. At least thet impression I have received from reading old books. I have read the Aimo Lahti's autobiography, but I do not remember anything specific. I don't have the book at hand now, since I am writing this in Oslo, Norway (I love this Internet). Lahti also designed the famous "Suomi" submachine gun. This was also copied by the Soviets. "Suomi" looks a lot like a Thompson, but was different. It has a mass lock (I'm not too sure about the terms) and is very reliable. I'm running out about my knowledge about now, but I still want to mention that Aimo Lahti is considered one of the key persons in the finnish weapons desingn before and during WWII. Timo Kiravuo Helsinki University of Technology, Computing Center kiravuo@hut.fi kiravuo@fingate.bitnet sorvi::kiravuo work: 90-451 4328 home: 90-676 076
jac@paul.rutgers.edu (J. A. Chandross) (06/20/89)
From: jac@paul.rutgers.edu (J. A. Chandross) t32726k@kaira.hut.fi (Timo Kiravuo) writes: > Molotov coctail was the most famous solution. For some reason > there never seems to be any shortage of empty liquor bottles in > Finland :-) so those were filled with a mixture gasoline, > turpentine and some other chemicals, to be slightly sticky. Then fiddler@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) > Usually something like soap flakes. Leaves you with something > very like napalm. Napalm is made using lithium stearate. This is the same stuff they use to lube your front end, basically. Kids, don't try this at home. Jonathan A. Chandross Internet: jac@paul.rutgers.edu UUCP: rutgers!paul.rutgers.edu!jac
de@cs.rochester.edu (Dave Esan) (07/05/89)
From: moscom!de@cs.rochester.edu (Dave Esan) In article <7596@cbnews.ATT.COM- jac@paul.rutgers.edu (J. A. Chandross) writes: -t32726k@kaira.hut.fi (Timo Kiravuo) writes: -- Molotov coctail was the most famous solution. For some reason -- there never seems to be any shortage of empty liquor bottles in -- Finland :-) so those were filled with a mixture gasoline, -- turpentine and some other chemicals, to be slightly sticky. Then -fiddler@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) -- Usually something like soap flakes. Leaves you with something -- very like napalm. -Napalm is made using lithium stearate. This is the same stuff they use -to lube your front end, basically. In the book "The Invisible Air Force", which is the story of Air America in SouthEast Asia, it is noted that the use of napalm was banned in Laos and Cambodia. To get around this ban the CIA shipped Tide laundry detergent, which was mixed in 55 gallons drums with aviation fuel to produce a napalm like substance. This was then used where needed without violating the export laws. -- --> David Esan rochester!moscom!de