pierson@cimnet.dec.com (07/27/89)
From: pierson@cimnet.dec.com SEACOAST FORTIFICATIONS of the UNITED STATES, Emanuel Raymond Lewis, 1970, 1979, discusses the coast defense mortars. The standard ca 1900- 1910 was a 12 inch, in pits of 4 (later 2). After WWI some railway mounts appeared (this is in addition to the better known 16 inch railway rifles). 700 lb projectile, 15,000 yd range, 1500 fps MV. Tampa, Fla. Fort DeSoto Park is the only site listed with seacoast mortars still in place, having been abandoned in 1930's. Most of the guns and mortars were used for scrap metal during or after WWII. =================== About Nukes, (separate topic 8)>>) one reference is US NUCLEAR WEAPONS, by Chuck Hansen, ISBN 0617 56740-7 (If I copied it correctly). Hansen was involved in the "flap" in Wisconsin(?) 10 years ago over publication of "classified" stuff on H Bombs. He won that by demonstrating that the stuff had already been declassified. He has followed up with 300 "coffee table" sized pages of history, technology and pictures on the weapons. With LOTS of footnotes. Its approximately $30, I am reading a borrowed copy... I personally heard the "nuclear hand grenade" story (throwable x meters, lethal radius x+10 meters) ca 1960, at which point it was _always_ identified as a joke. The smallest yields in Hansen are on the order of 2 tons. The smallest "weapon" was the Davy Crockett nuclear round for recoilless rifle (I think). ADM's (Atomic Demolition Munition) for barrier cratering, pass blocking, etc have yields down to (below?) this range. The smallest discussed is clearly a two person load. (which also may have to do with the "two person" rule: Weapons to be serviced, etc, by two persons, always.) thanks dave pierson Digital Equipment Corporation |The opinions are my own 600 Nickerson Rd |The facts as true as I can manage Marlboro, Mass 01742
daveme%tekirl.labs.tek.com@RELAY.CS.NET (Dave Mead) (07/29/89)
From: Dave Mead <daveme%tekirl.labs.tek.com@RELAY.CS.NET>
In article <8630@cbnews.ATT.COM*, pierson@cimnet.dec.com writes:
*
*
* From: pierson@cimnet.dec.com
*
* SEACOAST FORTIFICATIONS of the UNITED STATES, Emanuel Raymond Lewis,
* 1970, 1979, discusses the coast defense mortars. The standard ca 1900-
* 1910 was a 12 inch, in pits of 4 (later 2). After WWI some railway mounts
At Fort Steven (mouth of the Columbia) we have amoung other gun fortifications
some of these "four hole" mortar pits that were later converted to "two holers".
The museum there states the reason for the down grade was that practice firings
of volleys had *killed* something like 6(?) gunners from muzzle blast con-
cussion! Kind of like dynamiting fish?welty@lewis.crd.ge.com (richard welty) (08/04/89)
From: welty@lewis.crd.ge.com (richard welty) In article <8675@cbnews.ATT.COM>, Dave Mead writes: *In article <8630@cbnews.ATT.COM*, pierson@cimnet.dec.com writes: *At Fort Steven (mouth of the Columbia) we have amoung other gun fortifications *some of these "four hole" mortar pits that were later converted to "two holers". *The museum there states the reason for the down grade was that practice firings *of volleys had *killed* something like 6(?) gunners from muzzle blast con- *cussion! Kind of like dynamiting fish? interesting. the staff at the museum at the watervliet arsenal didn't say anything about deaths amongst the crews; they merely mentioned that you got a better rate of fire with two than four because after all four went off at once, the crew was useless for sometime there afterward. i didn't realize that useless == dead. richard -- richard welty 518-387-6346, GE R&D, K1-5C39, Niskayuna, New York ..!crdgw1!lewis.crd.ge.com!welty welty@lewis.crd.ge.com Officer: Do you know how fast you were going? Driver: No. The speedometer only goes up to 85
rbeville%tekig5.pen.tek.com@RELAY.CS.NET (Bob Beville) (08/09/89)
From: Bob Beville <rbeville%tekig5.pen.tek.com@RELAY.CS.NET> From the tour brochure of the Fort Stevens State Park: "BATTERY CLARK (1899) - Named for William Clark of the Lewis and Clark Expedition, this is the only mortar battery at Fort Stevens. Originally Battery Clark was armed with eight 12-inch mortars; then in 1917 four of the mortars were moved across the river to Battery Guenther in Fort Canby. The move was made to provide mortar fire froma another location at the mouth of the Columbis River and to make the operation of Battery Clark more efficient. With eight mortars, about thirty men were re- quireed to operate each pair of guns. As a result, the gun pits were overcrowded, dangerous and inefficient. The removal of four mortars removed these problems and about the same number of shots could be fired with the new arrangement..." The museum has a eight minute film showing the firing of these mortars... you can 'see' the concussion wave flow thru the gunners standing by with their mouths open and ears covered; the trees in the background get a wave-jolt, too. And while we are at it, the formal name for those "disappearing" cannon apparatus'' in the large concrete gun pits is the "Buffington-Crozier" DC(disappearing carriage) mount. SOURCES: _The Cape Forts_ Guardians of the Columbia_ by Marshall Hanft, Oregon Historical Society Press, 1986, 2nd Printing. _SILENT_SIEGE_II_ Japanese Attacks on North America in World War II by Bert Webber, Webber Research Group, 1988 Tour Brochure, Fort Stevens State Park. that's -OWARI- from GLOWWORM-7-9-4 best regards, rbeville@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM Bob Beville, Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR 97077
philj%tekig5.pen.tek.com@RELAY.CS.NET (Phil Jansen) (08/09/89)
From: Phil Jansen <philj%tekig5.pen.tek.com@RELAY.CS.NET>
Fort Stevens lost the crew in the pit for its first rifle firing. The rifles
were on counterweights to raise and lower the gun; the recoil pushed the gun
back down for reloading.
The problem was that the pit originally had a concrete cover (to protect the
crew from shells[!]). the cover confined the concussion in the pit, which
killed the crew. After that, the Army removed the covers.
---- History --------
Fort Stevens was built during the Civil War to guard the mouth of the Columbia
River from the Confederate navy (and other navies). The original mortars were
replaced by rifles (BIG ones) in WWII in a general US coastal defense upgrade.
Fort Stevens was the only US target (not territory) to be shelled by
enemies in WWII. A Japanese submarine surfaced one night and took some
potshots at the Fort. The Fort did not return fire, as that would only give
their position away (and the sub was only hitting a sand spit).
The only thing left standing at the Fort now is the hardened concrete
buildings. Still, it's an interesting picnic spot, and a nice beach.
Phil Jansen
--
If you repeat things often enough, they become true.
Phil Jansen If you repeat things often enough, they become true.
philj@tekig5.pen.tek.com If you repeat things often enough, they become true.rbeville@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Bob Beville) (08/10/89)
From: rbeville@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Bob Beville) Talking about shooting at aircraft with support from visual and microphone triangulation 'spotters' ... This reference has a photo of an apparatus with this caption: "Sound Locator M-2 was standard for detecting and locating sounds in pre-RADAR days." The apparatus has three 'trumpet' like tubes about the diameter of a tuba... they have beams or support members that terminate down to a pedestal post where some hand-crank wheels appear( for rotation and elevation control like the ACK-ACK gun). An operator standing on the pedestal deck( he appears to rotate the thing he's standing on and stays put relative to the gear) looks like he's wearing WW2 pilot headphone gear. From the scale-height of this operator it's about 8 to 9 feet tall. no further details discerned... On the mouth of the Columbia River, these could as easily help locate ships coming over the bar. The battery emplacement at Fort Stevens that was sealed over with guns inside was a conversion of BATTERY MISHLER into an HECP: HARBOR ENTRANCE COMMAND POST. The battery was camouflaged by great physical effort to look like its surroundings. A salvage team wanted to scrap the guns/disappearing carriages to help the war effort scrap drive... they were after the lead carriage counterweights at 97,000 lbs. each; each steel gun barrel weighed 77,000 lbs ..... 237 tons in all! The battery, built in 1897, was thought too unsound to disturb, and because of the Oregon rainfall, the comm equipment would get leaked on through fractures in the structure. The guns were left alone until long after the war... The Fort Stevens Museum/Gift Store has a muzzle of one of the huge guns on exhibit... a 10-inch one. The rifling in the barrel looks to be one-half inch deep. my source... This is in Chapter 5, Coastal Defences in the Pacific Northwest discussing the fortifications of the Strait of Juan De Fuca, Puget Sound, Vancouver, Astoria, and the Columbia River... the forts and batteries, searchlights, tethered mines, and early RADARs. of: _SILENT_SIEGE_II, JAPANESE ATTACKS ON NORTH AMERICA IN WORLD WAR II Bert Webber, Webber Reasearch Group, Medford OR. that's -OWARI- from GLOWWORM-7-9-4 best regards, rbeville@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM Bob Beville, Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR 97077
welty@lewis.crd.ge.com (richard welty) (08/12/89)
From: welty@lewis.crd.ge.com (richard welty)
In article <8892@cbnews.ATT.COM>, Phil Jansen writes:
*Fort Stevens lost the crew in the pit for its first rifle firing. The rifles
*were on counterweights to raise and lower the gun; the recoil pushed the gun
*back down for reloading.
ok; this was a case of deaths during a rifle firing; not during a mortar
firing, which is what i was talking about originally. in any case, it
is clear that both the coast defense rifle and coast defense mortar
emplacments had design flaws that were only discovered after the abuse
of some of their crews.
there have been cases on battleships where crews were injured
by the fire of the big guns; my recollection is that one Admiral
partially lost sight in one eye while in the conning tower of
a Iowa class BB due to a gun firing.
*Fort Stevens was built during the Civil War to guard the mouth of the Columbia
*River from the Confederate navy (and other navies). The original mortars were
*replaced by rifles (BIG ones) in WWII in a general US coastal defense upgrade.
the Watervliet Arsenal manufactured large numbers of 16" guns for coast
defense after WWI; most of these were ultimately scrapped later in WWII
when it was realized that they weren't going to be used. also, many
guns built originally for the Navy were transfered to the Army as BB
construction was slowed down; i believe that this is what happened to
the 16"/50 caliber Mk IIs that were too big for the turrets in the Iowas.
richard
--
richard welty 518-387-6346, GE R&D, K1-5C39, Niskayuna, New York
..!crdgw1!lewis.crd.ge.com!welty welty@lewis.crd.ge.com
``Lucas -- a good day's work, and home before dark''