jdp@caleb.UUCP (Jim Pritchett) (10/03/89)
From: jdp@caleb.UUCP (Jim Pritchett)
[ Feed the terrorists to the lineeater]
Since I have noticed at least posters in this newsgroup from Israel, I
thought that this would be a good place to ask the following questions.
I have seen reports in the press that, during the Israeli "invasion"/
"police action"/"Peace for Gallilee"/whatever in Lebanon, the IDF discovered
huge cave(s) in which the Soviets had stockpiled huge quantities of weapons.
Unfortunately, I have seen very few details about this in the American press.
I've read that the cave(s) had underwater access to the sea and had enough
equipment to outfit from 1.5 to 3 divisions. Does anyone out there have more
and better details?
It would be interesting to know what kinds of equipment was found and
in what quantities. Did Israel know about the cave(s) before the invasion?
Was this the real reason for the operation? Did the US know? (I read that the
US did NOT know about it, but was that true?) What kind of cave(s) were they.
Were they natural, man-made, or both? How big were they? Etc.
What about caves in other areas of military significance? Germany?
Central America? The USSR? Etc.??? We've read about the Viet Cong's use of
caves in Vietnam, what other historical battles involved the use of caves?
Is that enough questions?
Jim Pritchett
UUCP: {attctc|texbell}!letni!caleb!jdpcperlebe@encad.Wichita.NCR.COM (Chris Perleberg) (10/05/89)
From: cperlebe@encad.Wichita.NCR.COM (Chris Perleberg) In article <9867@cbnews.ATT.COM> jdp@caleb.UUCP (Jim Pritchett) writes: > > > What about caves in other areas of military significance? Germany? >Central America? The USSR? Etc.??? We've read about the Viet Cong's use of >caves in Vietnam, what other historical battles involved the use of caves? > Don't know about the Israeli caves, but the North Koreans must be the cave masters on the world. They regularly dig huge tunnels under the DMZ. Some are big enough for a tank division to roll through. Additionally (according to the book _Red Phoenix_ anyway), they have airports built in caves. Chris Perleberg cperlebe@encad.wichita.ncr.com
commgrp@silver.bacs.indiana.edu (BACS Data Communications Group) (10/10/89)
From: BACS Data Communications Group <commgrp@silver.bacs.indiana.edu> > What about caves ... of military significance? Germany? Central >America? The USSR? Etc.??? We've read about the Viet Cong's use of >caves in Vietnam, what other historical battles involved the use of >caves? > >Jim Pritchett UUCP: {attctc|texbell}!letni!caleb!jdp I'm also interested in military uses of caves, being a caver (those not in the know call them spelunkers) and member of the National Speleological Society (NSS). Natural caves and other holes in the ground have probably always been used as expedient shelters and storage places during war, even before the advent of explosives. The obvious disadvantage of doing so is the risk of getting trapped by the enemy in a cave with only one entrance. Unlike mines and tunnels, most natural caves are extremely stable structures; they have been there for a LONG time. Collapsing a typical limestone cave would require uneconomical quantities of explosives, or a direct hit with a very large delay-fuzed armor- piercing bomb. Most natural caves are wet, muddy, have low ceilings, and are inconveniently located. The damp cave environment is usually unsuitable for long-term storage. The temperature inside most caves is equal to the average outside temperature of the region. Cool spring-caves have been used for food storage in peace and war, including the American Civil War. Some trenches of WW I had extensive underground chambers, as did the Maginot Line. In the trench warfare of the Civil War and WW I, tunnels were dug under enemy lines and filled with explosives. The enemy lines were blown up, followed by massive surface attacks. Troops who dig tunnels are called sappers. Mammoth Cave, Kentucky (now a national park) was mined for saltpeter for making gunpowder for the War of 1812. (Calcium nitrate is leached from cave dirt; the boiled, concentrated solution is mixed with wood ashes to convert the calcium nitrate to potassium nitrate. Calcium nitrate is unsuitable for making gunpowder because it is very hygroscopic.) The Confederacy also mined natural caves for saltpeter during the Civil War when the Northern blockade prevented its importation. Many old saltpeter workings can still be found in limestone caves in southern states. Many southern caves contain Civil War signatures, including dates and unit numbers. Some caver/historians have specialized in researching them. There was action at a major CSA saltpeter works in a Tennessee cave-- Union forces quietly surrounded the back entrance, then attacked the front entrance. The fleeing rebels were killed as they emerged. An Austrian caver gave a presentation at an NSS convention about artificial caves in Austria and other European countries. Some are hand-dug hideouts used to hide from invaders in medieval times (dated by pottery fragments found therein). They are often found under very old farmhouses. (You couldn't call the cops back then, and if you did, they might be as dangerous as the invaders.) These "caves" rarely exceed 100 feet total length but may be rather complex. One had a mushroom-shaped chamber above the main tunnel, with a very narrow 'stem'. Such a position could easily be defended by a child with a club. Old castles really do have tunnels underneath, now sought and explored by modern cavers. Ancient tunnels through solid rock were dug by slave hand-labor; fires were built against the face, then cold water was thrown on the rock, causing it to break. Fumes from the fires caused a high death rate among the diggers. Modern cavers sometimes use propane torches to break rocks when explosives are inadvisable or unavailable. The medieval Austrian tunnels appear to be in loess, a type of soil which is well-suited for tunnelling. The same type of soil occurs in American prairie states. Pioneers' dugouts can still be found in the banks of the Missouri River. See also _The Great Escape_ by Paul Brickhill (also a movie), which contains detailed descriptions of how Allied airmen tunnelled out of German POW camps. The Nazis used underground factories to build ME-262's, V-2's and other high-priority weapons. Russian occupation forces in Austria stripped the tunnels of all metal objects after the war. They detonated explosives in some tunnels, but found them stronger than expected. The tunnels are lined with concrete. Some of the ceilings are 40 feet high, and have soda-straw stalactites 10 feet long. Today, few people know exactly what the Nazi tunnels were used for. They were dug by slave labor, among whom it is said that there were 3000 deaths per year per tunnel. Others claim the number is far lower; my friend notes that it is extremely difficult to do historical research on WW II in Austria and Germany because both left and right political factions prefer not to have their traditional propaganda disproved. Enormous complexes of bomb shelters were dug in Europe during WW II. Some countries (notably Switzerland) still maintain them in usable condition; others have been abandoned. The Rock of Gibraltar is honeycombed with artificial caves which house military installations. Old European cities have networks of tunnels (sewers, hideouts, storage chambers, etc.) dating from ancient times, whose whereabouts are unknown to present city governments. In a city in GDR (East Germany) which must remain nameless, cavers found a rusty iron door on the river bank, overgrown with weeds. One of their group was a locksmith, who picked the lock and made a key. Inside, they found an extensive network of tunnels, and unspecified "treasure" which was hidden there during WW II, then forgotten when the city was bombed flat and most of the inhabitants were killed. It's top secret because getting caught in there means a one-way ticket to Siberia: GDR has a law against going underground, enacted to discourage tunneling under the Berlin Wall. Literally interpreted, it is illegal to go to one's basement for a bottle of beer. The GDR government strongly encourages sports, however, and there are organized caving clubs whose activities are scrutinized and regulated. Cave locations are state secrets in Communist Bloc countries. A group of French cavers was caught at the Czech border with cave locations marked on an ordinary roadmap; they were arrested for spying and spent 6 weeks in jail before the French embassy rescued them. An American caver who visited Hungary saw a huge cave entrance with railroad tracks going inside. His Hungarian friends told him, "The Germans used this cave to built rockets; we build tanks in there, but don't tell anybody!" Some of the caves used as fortifications on Japanese-held Pacific islands of WW II are natural, others were dug. I read an article in the _NSS News_ about 15 years ago, by a caver who had toured Okinawa. He said that the caves contain human bones and unexploded ammunition. I have seen a picture of a Japanese "cave radio" which was captured on Okinawa, where it had been used for communicating between caves and tunnels and for directing artillery. It is a very-low-frequency Morse-code transceiver-- the transmitter is a high-frequency buzzer, the receiver uses a coherer detector. The antenna was a very long wire which may have extended outside the caves. It was probably well-suited for its purpose, being able to penetrate the ground, and using a frequency unlikely to be monitored or jammed by the enemy. > ... The North Koreans must be the cave masters on the world. They > regularly dig huge tunnels under the DMZ. Some are big enough for a > tank division to roll through. > >Chris Perleberg cperlebe@encad.wichita.ncr.com True! Our side uses sophisticated (mostly secret) geophysical and remote-sensing techniques to detect the tunnels. I have heard that space-based radar can see underground structures. -- Frank Reid NSS 9086F reid@gold.bacs.indiana.edu
military@cbnews.ATT.COM (William B. Thacker) (10/11/89)
From: att!shuxd!merkel (Tom Merkel) While on a visit to Egypt a few years back I was taken up onto a ridge which ran out into the desert from Cairo. I believe it is known as Mokhattam ( sp? ), the road starts near the quarry used to build the pyramids. This area was being opened for commercial exploitation after years of use as a military reservation. There were many caves, side roads which disappeared from sight, abandoned emplacements, and other signs of excavation and subterranean use. I was told by my host, a former officer, that at one time this ridge was used to store a large part of Egyptian ammo, fuel, and vehicles underground and secure from air attack. The area had been off limits to civilians until after the peace with Israel, at which time it was demilitarized. I was told that at its peak the complex extended for miles into the desert. I saw an area of a few miles length along the main road that had obviously been used for military purposes. Its probably covered with condos and villas now. -Tom --- Tom Merkel att!shuxd!merkel (201)898-3547 eschew obfuscation
jwm@stda.jhuapl.edu (Jim Meritt) (10/11/89)
From: jwm@stda.jhuapl.edu (Jim Meritt) In article <9929@cbnews.ATT.COM> you write: } } }From: cperlebe@encad.Wichita.NCR.COM (Chris Perleberg) } }In article <9867@cbnews.ATT.COM> jdp@caleb.UUCP (Jim Pritchett) writes: }> }> }> What about caves in other areas of military significance? Germany? }>Central America? The USSR? Etc.??? We've read about the Viet Cong's use of }>caves in Vietnam, what other historical battles involved the use of caves? }> }Don't know about the Israeli caves, but the North Koreans must be the }cave masters on the world. They regularly dig huge tunnels under the DMZ. }Some are big enough for a tank division to roll through. Additionally }(according to the book _Red Phoenix_ anyway), they have airports built in }caves. I was under the impression that Sweden had hollowed out a mountain, and had facilities in in such that they could put most of their Navy underground. Cheyenne Mountain ain't no small potatoes, either! -- "In these matters the only certainty is that nothing is certain" - Pliny the Elder These were the opinions of : jwm@aplvax.jhuapl.edu - or - jwm@aplvax.uucp - or - meritt%aplvm.BITNET
illgen@hq.af.mil (Keneth..Illgen) (10/12/89)
From: illgen@hq.af.mil (Keneth..Illgen) In article <9929@cbnews.ATT.COM> cperlebe@encad.Wichita.NCR.COM (Chris Perleberg) writes: > > >From: cperlebe@encad.Wichita.NCR.COM (Chris Perleberg) > >In article <9867@cbnews.ATT.COM> jdp@caleb.UUCP (Jim Pritchett) writes: >> >> >> What about caves in other areas of military significance? Germany? >>Central America? The USSR? Etc.??? We've read about the Viet Cong's use of >>caves in Vietnam, what other historical battles involved the use of caves? While stationed in southern Italy I had the opportunity to visit many caves used by the Germans and Italians. One that stands out is inside Monte Vergine. The only flaw in this massive cave was its' west entrance. The positioning of it on the face of the mountain left it an easy target for allied planes. A trip through southern and central Italy would give you ample opportunity to observe how the Germans withdrew through this country. While German troops plodded along the coast the generals pretty much bee-lined up through the middle of the country.