mes@tellab5.tellab5.CHI.IL.US (Martin Swinney) (10/12/89)
From: mes@tellab5.tellab5.CHI.IL.US (Martin Swinney)
To the individual who stated in (article 1859) that Airborne unit's received
desg.of numbers at and above 500. Please explain the following errors.
A) 1st and 2nd of the 75th Ranger Battalion - Airborne (still active)
B) All WW2 Glider/Airborne Batt. 300 ser.
C) 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, Batt. of the 325th (still active)
D) 1st, 5th, 7th, 12th, Group Special Forces (still active)
PLEASE DON'T TRY TO FIGURE OUT THE LOGIC USED IN THIS SYSTEM.......
some desk bound poge could see this and use a reorg. to kiss up to the
chain of command.
remember MILITARY / INTELEGENCE (sp) they don't fit together.
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an old S.F.er just wanting to set the record straight....YOU DON'T GET THESE
FOR NOTHING........
II II
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dee@mitre.org (David E. Emery) (10/14/89)
From: dee@mitre.org (David E. Emery) mes@tellab5.tellab5.CHI.IL.US (Martin Swinney) asks about Airborne unit numbers. You have to distinguish between Parachute Infantry Regiments and units on jump status. The former is a title, the latter is a mission. The original Parachute Infantry Units (originally battalions) started with number 501 (Of Geronimo fame). They run at least through 509. The 325 infantry was not Parachute, but Glider Infantry. Hell, the original members of 325 weren't even on jump status (since they landed in gliders, supposedly "safe".) The Ranger Battalions are just that, Ranger Battalions. During WWII they were not part of 75th Infantry. I'm not sure why the 75'th is associated with the Rangers. The same is true of Special Forces. The odd-ball is 187 Infantry. I think this unit was originally straight-leg infantry and later converted to Airborne. They kept their designation. The 50x units were 'new' units during WW II. Note that the 82 division was a leg division when WW II started, and was so when Omar Bradley commanded it. > remember MILITARY / INTELEGENCE (sp) they don't fit together. But that doesn't say anything about Military Intelligence Overall, the U.S. combat arms regimental system has received considerable attention over the years. There may not be a direct reason for unit numbers, but there IS a reason. Every unit has its lineage and honors, usually posted in its headquarters, and there are books that explain the origin of the unit. >an old S.F.er just wanting to set the record straight.... Do you know the heritage of the Special Forces, related to the First Special Service Force? If not, someone missed something in your S.F. training. dave emery CPT, FA, NHARNG (associated with 3-325 Inf (Abn) as a cadet, FO for A/1-501 Inf (Air Assault) on active duty)
howard@cos.com (Howard C. Berkowitz) (10/16/89)
From: howard@cos.com (Howard C. Berkowitz) In article <10147@cbnews.ATT.COM>, mes@tellab5.tellab5.CHI.IL.US (Martin Swinney) writes: > > > From: mes@tellab5.tellab5.CHI.IL.US (Martin Swinney) > To the individual who stated in (article 1859) that Airborne unit's received > desg.of numbers at and above 500. Please explain the following errors. Again, this was from memory. Perhaps the 500 series is more specifically parachute infantry (as in the 82nd Airborne Div., and the 101st when Airborne). Yes, I do know about exceptions such as the 187th Regimental Combat Team (Airborne). > > A) 1st and 2nd of the 75th Ranger Battalion - Airborne (still active) I won't try to figure out Ranger unit logic, since the original WWII Ranger bns were, as I remember, 1 through 6. > > B) All WW2 Glider/Airborne Batt. 300 ser. This may be true for glider units, but, as far as I can remember, the parachute infantry regiments at Normandy, Arnhem, etc., were 500 series. > > C) 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, Batt. of the 325th (still active) Haven't the slightest idea. > > D) 1st, 5th, 7th, 12th, Group Special Forces (still active) I was discussing regiments, not non-regimental units. SF historically traced its origin to the 1st Special Service Force, which, naturally, had a Ranger rather than a SF mission (as opposed to OSS Jedburghs). Again by memory, the Army continued the history of the 1st SSF by activating the 7th SFG first, then the 77th. The 1st SFG came later, but I can check this with Aaron Banks' book at home. -- howard@cos.com OR {uunet, decuac, sun!sundc, hadron, hqda-ai}!cos!howard (703) 883-2812 [W] (703) 998-5017 [H] DISCLAIMER: Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the Corporation for Open Systems, its members, or any standards body.
bobtl%toolbox.wv.tek.com@RELAY.CS.NET (10/18/89)
From: bobtl%toolbox.wv.tek.com@RELAY.CS.NET Most often there is a historical reason for army unit designations. It is not often obvious, or even rational, but there. Someone stated earlier that reserve (USAR and ANG) formations typically have larger numbers. For example, I am a reservist with the 104th Division. What happened to 102 and 103? Why is the 101st an active formation? My explanation is that in some pre-war or early war plans some staff officer determined that we would need X infantry divisions, say 110. Then each division was listed, and plans made as to where it would mobilize, train, how it would be used. So plans were made to mobilize the 101st somewhere in the east (Benning? I don't know), the 104th in Oregon, 102 and 103 somewhere else. But amazing fact, plans change. We found we needed another airborne division, 101 happened to be chosen for some reason. Maybe 102 and 103 could not be mobilized because there was no room to train those formations. The 104th was mobilized because NO one wanted to be in Camp Adair, OR :-). Plenty of room. The 101st was a crack unit with plenty of unit pride. We also needed airborne formations after the war, so it was retained on active status. The 104th was participated in several campaigns in Europe. It did not do brilliantly, but then again, it never had a general relieved, either. The army did need a reserve formation in the Northwest, the 104th had some ties to the area, so it was tagged for that. Maybe the 102 or 103 were actually mobilized, but for some reason they were not needed after the war. Again, I don't know. If anyone really wanted to know, the answer probably lies in some musty old army archive. Trivia question: Was there a division formation with a number larger than 104? Is there one now? Someone asked if unit numbering schemes can cause confusion. Absolutely. When I was in Germany in the 70's I was assistant ops officer with 2d Battalion, 75th Field Artillery. At the same time there was (still is) a Ranger unit, 2nd Battalion, 75th Infantry at Ft. Lewis WA. Occassionally a message would be sent to us saying "USS Charleston is ready to rendevous at Bremerton, WA to conduct amphibious training operations." (Please note that this is not a specific reference to any actual message, just an example of messages that occassionally were received). I always wondered what the rangers did with our messages "300 rounds of 8" howitzer ammunition is pre-positioned for your training exericse in Grafenwoehr" that were mistakenly sent to them. :-)
major@beaver.cs.washington.edu (Mike Schmitt) (10/19/89)
From: ssc-vax!shuksan!major@beaver.cs.washington.edu (Mike Schmitt) In article <10147@cbnews.ATT.COM>, mes@tellab5.tellab5.CHI.IL.US (Martin Swinney) writes: > > > From: mes@tellab5.tellab5.CHI.IL.US (Martin Swinney) > > To the individual who stated in (article 1859) that Airborne unit's received > > desg.of numbers at and above 500. Please explain the following errors. > > A) 1st and 2nd of the 75th Ranger Battalion - Airborne (still active) > > B) All WW2 Glider/Airborne Batt. 300 ser. > > C) 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, Batt. of the 325th (still active) > > D) 1st, 5th, 7th, 12th, Group Special Forces (still active) The official force structure of the Army requires that all batallion size units of the regimental system be equivilant to the basic branches of the army. There is no Airborne branch, Ranger branch, nor Special Forces branch - as such. They are basically Infantry Units manned by Infantrymen. Their mission, structure and special purpose may be further delineated, for example: 1st Battalion, 75th Infantry (Ranger)(Airborne). 1st Battalion, 503d Infantry (Airborne) 2nd Battalion, 33rd Infantry (Light) 1st Battalion, 26th Infantry (Mechanized) All the personnel assigned to that unit are basically infantrymen, wear the crossed rifle insignia, and the light blue infantry colors. They may call themselves "75th Rangers", "503d Airborne", "26th Mech" and perhaps never admit they're "Infantry", but they are (and in the final analysis that's exactly what they are - they may arrive on the battlefield differently - but to 'close with and destroy the enemy' is to do so by FOOT.) So, the basic branches of the Army (Infantry, Armor, Artillery, Engineers, Aviation, Cavalry, Air Defense Artillery, Military Intelligence, etc etc, dictate the title of the units. Armor officers are in Armor Battalions, not Tank Battalions. The rhyme and reason for current designations are historical and meant to keep faith with the traditions of each unit - the lineage and honors each unit has earned. I have lots of books, material, and research papers on the units, histories and the regimental system of the US Army and the British Army - I'd be glad to research any further information. Or simply answer inqueries - "Those are Regulars, by God!" - MG Lambert, Commander of the British 7th Infantry Regiment Battle of New Orleans, 1815 "Steady men, fire at my order." - Commander of the US 4th Infantry Regiment Battle of New Orleans, 1815 1 Battalion, 4th Infantry now serving with 3rd Infantry Division (Mech), Germany 1 Battalion, 7th Infantry Regiment (Mech) now serving with the British Army on the Rhine, Germany major mike
major@beaver.cs.washington.edu (Mike Schmitt) (10/24/89)
From: ssc-vax!shuksan!major@beaver.cs.washington.edu (Mike Schmitt) In article <10321@cbnews.ATT.COM>, bobtl%toolbox.wv.tek.com@RELAY.CS.NET writes: > From: bobtl%toolbox.wv.tek.com@RELAY.CS.NET > Why is the 101st an active formation? Probably because senior officers that served with the 101st want it to remain - and due to its 'illustrious' history - Bastogne. The 9th Infantry Division is on active duty today because when the Army was looking to (re)activate a division and station it at Fort Lewis (to replace the deactivated training center), General Westmoreland was Army Chief of Staff. Westmoreland commanded an artillery unit during WWII in the 9th (Old Reliables). Ergo, the 9th ID was activated. > Trivia question: Was there a division formation with a number larger > than 104? Is there one now? Current Active Army Divisions: 1st Infantry Division (Mech) Ft Riley KS 2nd Infantry Division (Light) Korea 3rd Infantry Division (Mech) Germany 4th Infantry Division (Mech) Ft Carson CO 5th Infantry Division (Mech) Ft Polk LA 6th Infantry Division (Light) Alaska 7th Infantry Division (Light) Ft Ord CA 8th Infantry Division (Mech) Germany 9th Infantry Division (Motorized) Ft Lewis WA 10th Mountain Division (Light) Ft Drum NY 24th Infantry Division (Mech) Ft Stewart GA 25th Infantry Division (Light) Hawaii 82nd Airborne Division Ft Bragg NC 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) Ft Campbell KY 1st Cavalry Division (Air Assault) Ft Hood TX 1st Armored Division Germany 2nd Armored Division Ft Hood TX 3rd Armored Division Germany Current Army National Guard Divisions: 26th Infantry Division Massachussets 28th Infantry Division Pennsylvania 29th Infantry Division (Light) Virginia 35th Infantry Division (Mech) Kansas 38th Infantry Division Indiana 40th Infantry Division (Mech) California 42nd Infantry Division New York 47th Infantry Division Minnesota 49th Armored Division Texas 50th Armored Division New Jersey Current Army Reserve Divisions: 70th Training Division Michigan 76th Training Division Connecticut 78th Training Division New Jersey 80th Training Division Virginia 84th Training Division Wisconsin 85th Training Division Illinois 91st Training Division California 95th Training Division Oklahoma 98th Training Division New York 100th Training Division Kentucky 104th Training Division Washington 108th Training Division North Carolina major mike