wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) (10/03/89)
From: Will Martin <wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL> This is a very late response; I just finished reading thru the last 30 or so Digest issues of sci.military and noted this subject mentioned a while back. For those who are interested in this, there is a magazine still currently on the newsstands that has an article on the subject of sawbacks on knives and the effectiveness of various styles. That is the Fall 1989 issue of "Fighting Knives" magazine. This publication is an outgrowth of the magazine "SWAT"; these were just sold by their original publisher in Arizona to another firm based in California. [It's rather ironic for weapons- oriented magazines to be moving *into* California these days! I would have expected all such firms to be moving *out* of that state...] (If you cannot find this on the newsstands in your area, it is Vol 1 #3 and costs $3.95 cover price. A 4-issue subscription is $9.95 from Fighting Knives, PO Box 16598, North Hollywood, CA 91615.) Anyway, this issue has an article beginning on page 232 on the "Modern Survival Knife" which includes a series of tests of different knives' sawback teeth on various materials, including plexiglas from a helicopter, sheetmetal claimed to be equivalent to helicopter and military aircraft skin, and wood. There have been other knife publications that tested sawteeth in the past, but those articles are probably impossible to find via any regular reference channels, since just about no libraries stock this sort of publication, and they aren't listed in any of the standard indexes. So check out this current article if you care about this. As someone who acumulates knives to a ridiculous degree, I can state that the vast majority of sawtooth-backs are totally worthless, especially those on lower-cost imported hollow-handle knives that have been so prevalent since the "Rambo" movies made them popular. They are for show and not for any real use. (But there's nothing wrong with buying such toys just because they look neat! :-) You just have to remember they are image and not substance.) The relatively small and unimpressive teeth on knives like the USAF survival model and the Randall Model 18 Pilot's Knife (the latter being the first widely-known modern hollow-handle model) were designed to cut through sheetmetal for aircraft-evacuation or rescue use; those teeth are just about useless on wood. Some modern survival knives have much better wood-cutting teeth, and it is much more likely that wood will be the material somebody will need to cut with them. None of them are as good as cutting wood as a real saw, which has outspread teeth which cut a kerf wider than the tool -- teeth on knives don't do this, so the blade binds in the cut as it gets to any depth. Usually it is better to just chop with the blade part of the knife to cut down a sapling for a tent pole or the like. Actually, the saw blade on the military-model "Swiss Army" knife -- the model really issued to the Swiss and sold as the "Trooper" [and the equivalent one issued to the German army] -- has been widely praised as being the best wood saw built into any knife. The teeth on that folding blade are still not set to protrude outward, but the blade is thin enough and there are a double row of alternating teeth that cut on the pull stroke so the net effect is functional. Of course, the length is short enough that it won't be used for large timber; it works fine on the size of branch it can handle. Regards, Will Martin
bxr307@uunet.uu.net (10/14/89)
From: munnari!csc.anu.oz.au!bxr307@uunet.uu.net I was always taught that the sawback on a knife was not designed for cutting. Rather it is designed for use in stabbing an opponent. The Sawback is meant to ensure that air is let into a wound and that the wound is ragged enough to prevent "suction" from the difference in air pressure between the insides of a body and the outside which make it difficult to quickly withdraw the knife from a wound. Many early twentieth century bayonets had this feature and the bayonet was the first to introduce the "blood groove" (the small deep grooves that run parallel to the blade along the length of the knife) which was designed (and actually worked bettter than the sawback in preventing suction). To try and use a "sawback" on a knife to cut wood or even metal is ridiculous. I know of no large military knife that actually has had the sawback sharpened in the same way that a real saw is. Thats why they won't be very successful in cutting things like wood or metal! While the saw blade on the Swiss Army knife is so small that its utility is questionable. ___________________________________________________________________________ I hope thats of interest to my fellow readers of sci.military.
dkrause@orion.oac.uci.edu (Doug Krause) (10/16/89)
From: Doug Krause <dkrause@orion.oac.uci.edu>
In article <10227@cbnews.ATT.COM> munnari!csc.anu.oz.au!bxr307@uunet.uu.net writes:
#I was always taught that the sawback on a knife was not designed for cutting.
#Rather it is designed for use in stabbing an opponent. The Sawback is meant to
#ensure that air is let into a wound and that the wound is ragged enough to
#prevent "suction" from the difference in air pressure between the insides of a
#body and the outside which make it difficult to quickly withdraw the knife
#from a wound.
Would the air pressure difference on something as thin as a knife really
affect "performance" that much?
Douglas Krause One yuppie can ruin your whole day.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
University of California, Irvine Internet: dkrause@orion.oac.uci.edu
Welcome to Irvine, Yuppieland USA BITNET: DJKrause@ucivmsamamba@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul A Deisinger) (10/30/89)
From: mamba@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul A Deisinger) In article <10268@cbnews.ATT.COM> dkrause@orion.oac.uci.edu (Doug Krause) writes: > > >From: Doug Krause <dkrause@orion.oac.uci.edu> > >In article <10227@cbnews.ATT.COM> munnari!csc.anu.oz.au!bxr307@uunet.uu.net writes: >#I was always taught that the sawback on a knife was not designed for cutting. Wrong >#Rather it is designed for use in stabbing an opponent. The Sawback is meant to >#ensure that air is let into a wound and that the wound is ragged enough to >#prevent "suction" from the difference in air pressure between the insides of a >#body and the outside which make it difficult to quickly withdraw the knife >#from a wound. Although it is possible that this could be a use for the sawback on knives it is NOT the intended use. A typical "survival" or "combat" type knife with a sawback area of 3-5 inches can go through a 2x4 in approximately 30 seconds when being used by an experienced person. The usual design of this sawback (as is on the issue M-9 bayonette) is extremelyrugged and is not prone to dulling while still being able to rip it's way through a variety of materials. > >Would the air pressure difference on something as thin as a knife really >affect "performance" that much? What you want to make a wound from a knife truly effective is what's known as a "blood groove". The blood grove is simply a "ditch" in the knife that causes there to be an opening along the blade to allow the flow of blood from the body even if the blade remains in the wound and would otherwise stop it up. You will find this groove on the top half of the flat of the blad of most hunting knives, you will also find it down the center of some double edged combat and boot knives. Paul Deisinger -- My other .sig is a porche. Boongawa.