wdstarr@athena.mit.edu (William December Starr) (10/16/89)
From: wdstarr@athena.mit.edu (William December Starr) I've heard various hints and indications that there exists something referred to as "caseless" ammo or rounds. Does anyone know anything about the general specifications of the stuff? (Assuming, of course, that the rumours that I've been hearing, which sprouted out of a discussion of the movie "Aliens," have any substance.) -- William December Starr, Official MIT Dropout (tm), Class of '79 wdstarr@athena.mit.edu [Backups ---> wdstarr%lynx@northeastern.edu, wdstarr@lynx.northeastern.edu]
military@cbnews.ATT.COM (William B. Thacker) (10/18/89)
From: att!utzoo!henry >From: wdstarr@athena.mit.edu (William December Starr) >... "caseless" ammo or rounds. Does anyone know anything >about the general specifications of the stuff? ... The idea has been around for a good many years: cartridge cases are expensive to make, and having to eject them from the gun is a considerable design headache, so why not make the propellant durable enough to hold its shape without a case? It generally hasn't worked well in practice, though: the propellants have not proved durable enough for realistic handling in a wide range of conditions, and there have been problems with things like chamber leakage (one significant function of the case is to expand slightly during firing and seal the breech tightly). People keep trying; somebody will eventually make it work. Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu
gwh%earthquake.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (George William Herbert) (10/18/89)
From: gwh%earthquake.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (George William Herbert) In article <10262@cbnews.ATT.COM> wdstarr@athena.mit.edu (William December Starr) writes: >I've heard various hints and indications that there exists something >referred to as "caseless" ammo or rounds. Does anyone know anything >about the general specifications of the stuff? (Assuming, of course, >that the rumours that I've been hearing, which sprouted out of a >discussion of the movie "Aliens," have any substance.) Yup. It's quite real. The propellant is a solid based on RDX high-explosive. There have been development projects going on since mid-1960's in this. Ther German Army (West) is about to (any year now...) deploy as its standard weapon the G-11 rifle, using a caseles 4.9mm round. It has been delayed by propellant stability problems. The material is RDX with lots of stabilizers. Formed (in G-11 ammo) into 9mm square by ~50mm long blocks with the bullet surrounded by propellant in the round's front. **************************************** George William Herbert UCB Naval Architecture Dpt. (my god, even on schedule!) maniac@garnet.berkeley.edu gwh@ocf.berkeley.edu ----------------------------------------
amoss%BATATA.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (Amos Shapira) (10/25/89)
From: Amos Shapira <amoss%BATATA.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
The caseless 4.7mm round for the (still experimental) H&K G-11 AR. There
is a multitude of round types.
The round itself looks like this (very rough):
:-----------:
: ----\
: ----/
:-----------:
:--powder---:projectile:
The powder block is really boxlike, albeit with rounded corners. I read
an article about it quite some time ago (1.5 years?), and the rifle was
deemed excellent. Any comments?
Marc A. Volovic, Sgt (res.) amoss@batata.huji.ac.il
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
The opinions contained herein are mine. The data contained herein is either
public knowledge or hearsay. Nothing I say is condoned by anyone. It is not
my fault. I wasn't here.
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+gwh%typhoon.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (George William Herbert) (10/27/89)
From: gwh%typhoon.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (George William Herbert) In article <10572@cbnews.ATT.COM> amoss%BATATA.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (Amos Shapira) writes: > The caseless 4.7mm round for the (still experimental) H&K G-11 AR. There >is a multitude of round types. > > The round itself looks like this (very rough): > > :-----------: > : ----\ > : ----/ > :-----------: > > :--powder---:projectile: > > > The powder block is really boxlike, albeit with rounded corners. I read >an article about it quite some time ago (1.5 years?), and the rifle was >deemed excellent. Any comments? Minor innacuracy. That was the _old_ G11 ammo. the new stuff looks like (drum roll please...) --------------------------| | _______________| |* |/----_____ |* |\____----- |* ---------------| |__________________________| ^primer ^bullet^ [propellant completely surrounds the projectile.] This was done to help counter the cook-off tendencies... or indirectly. They had to derate the propellant to prevent cookoff, needed more, and moved the boundary forward... **************************************** George William Herbert UCB Naval Architecture Dpt. (my god, even on schedule!) maniac@garnet.berkeley.edu gwh@ocf.berkeley.edu ----------------------------------------
military@cbnews.ATT.COM (William B. Thacker) (10/31/89)
From: lanl.gov!cmcl2!yale!spock!soup (Constantin von Wentzel) In article <10572@cbnews.ATT.COM> you write: > > >From: Amos Shapira <amoss%BATATA.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> > The caseless 4.7mm round for the (still experimental) H&K G-11 AR. There >is a multitude of round types. If I'm not mistaken the German Bundesgrenzschutz is getting them [H&K G-11 AR]. The rifle and the ammo are deemed excellent because there are some great improvements such as a magazine that lies flat ON the barrel and the amount of shots capabvle of thus being fired increases rapidly without making the rifle bulky. Plus, the caseless ammo weighs much much less than the standard american M-16 stuff. In the article I read awhile ago there was a comparison in weight between the two guns. Where the M-16 with 216 rounds was on one side you could have something like 500 rounds with the new caseless ammo. Caseless ammo also elimenates the need to eject the case and thus clog much less and require less maintenance. So, if we're all lucky we might get that wonderfull piece of german engineering for the whole NATO contingent, it would certainly make sense. Constantin von Wentzel.