military@cbnews.ATT.COM (William B. Thacker) (11/02/89)
From: Scott Babb <uunet!dartvax!kara.crsfld.com!babb> A few things about the A-10: >From: uunet!sequent!laxsqnt!daveman (David Mansfield) >A side note about the hitting power of the GAU-8: >... >While at an airshow one time, I asked an A-10 driver how effective was the >GAU-8 using the depleted uranium round. I was somewhat suprised to hear >that most A-10 pilots prefer the training round. It seems the heavier >depleted uranium round tends to go right through the armor top to bottom, >while the training round tends to just penetrate the top of the armor and >"rattle around inside for awhile". >... I, too, have heard this from A-10 drivers. What they seem to ignore is the effect that a uranium round going through a tank will have. It won't just punch a hole in the top, whiz through the middle, and punch a hole out the bottom with no other damage. First of all, this round has a *LOT* of energy. The energy from the round is probably sufficient to ignite the trapped air within the crew compartment. It sure looks like that's what happens in the demo films. Second, even if the air doesn't ignite, where does the armor go when the round hits it? It doesn't fall on the floor in a hot lump, it vaporizes. Now we have a crew compartment filled with nickel-steel plasma. Things are getting uncomfortable for the tankers. Last, given the cyclic rate of the GAU-8, the odds of hitting something besides empty space in the crew compartment are quite high. A single round through the engine, transmission, electronics, munitions, or dozens of other components will mission kill the tank. [mod.note: Lest all you smokers out there panic, fear not; air is not, to my knowledge, flammable. 8-) - Bill ] On to fitness for purpose: I have seen A-10s at air shows, both on the ground and in the air. They are impressive vehicles. I inspected one up-close about a year ago. The wings look to be over 18" thick. The driver told me that the leading surfaces are reinforced titanium. He said that the A-10 can land gear-up in a forest of 4" trees and still be flown. Try that with an F-16XL. The turbofans are mounted high and aft. They are shielded from the 12 O'clock ground by the wings. This means that the aircraft has a very low thermal signature. It just makes it a little harder to get a missile lock from the ground. The engines are also very quiet. I have had A-10s sneak up on me at 100' H.A.G. while I was driving down the interstate. I'm sure that I was just another fast-moving small tank that was killed by the computers. The joys of living in an Air Force training reservation area... The A-10 is maneuverable. I used to watch them dogfight when I was in college. They can stunt with the best of them. One driver I spoke with demonstrated how to keep the gun on-target. He literally cartwheeled his A-10 while keeping the gun aimed at a ground target that he was passing over. He tail-over 180ed the plane so that it must have been flying backwards for at least a little of the run. Then he pulled up and rolled out of it. He was probably on-target for at least five seconds during this maneuver, not counting the time he spent coming straight in. It's not as slick as variable camber wings flying sideways, but it can probably do the job. One of the main reasons that the A-10 is so survivable, besides titanium and kevlar, is that it isn't fly-by-wire. I'm told that Air Force pilots consider it 'real' flying, and that being an earth-mover is overshadowed by this 'realness,' making the A-10 one of the most sought-after drivers jobs in the USAF. A driver also told me that two Mass. ANG A-10s killed most of the Penn. USAR Armored Division a couple of years ago. It seems that they ID the tanks and APCs at night with IR sights and only killed the ones that they hadn't already killed... Flying low, throttled back, grinding up armor while the fighter jockeys whiz by, stalling out at 4X my speed, unable to get a missile lock on me has a certain appeal to me. I'd take an A-10 drivers job any day :-). I just had to add my comments to the pile, you can tell that I like the aircraft, huh ;-). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Scott L. Babb | These are not my employers opinions, they are mine, | | babb@judo.crsfld.com | and I refuse to keep them to myself. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
nelson_p@apollo.com (11/03/89)
From: nelson_p@apollo.com Scott Babb <uunet!dartvax!kara.crsfld.com!babb> > The energy from the [depleted uranium] round is probably sufficient to > ignite the trapped air within the crew compartment. It sure looks > like that's what happens in the demo films. Second, even if the > air doesn't ignite, where does the armor go What does this mean: "ignite the air"? > > making the A-10 one of the most sought-after drivers jobs in the USAF. I was talking to an A-10 pilot at an air show at Hanscom last year and he said that their understanding is that any actual combat mission in the A-10 is strictly one-way. Titanium bathtub or no, modern AA weapons will allow a pretty sure kill of the plane by any reasonably well-equipped ground force, according to him. ---Peter
military@cbnews.ATT.COM (William B. Thacker) (11/09/89)
From: Scott Babb <uunet!dartvax!judo.crsfld.com!babb> Peter Nelson <nelson_p@apollo.com> writes: >> The energy from the [depleted uranium] round is probably sufficient to >> ignite the trapped air within the crew compartment. It sure looks >> like that's what happens in the demo films. Second, even if the >> air doesn't ignite, where does the armor go > > What does this mean: "ignite the air"? > >> > >> making the A-10 one of the most sought-after drivers jobs in the USAF. > > I was talking to an A-10 pilot at an air show at Hanscom last year and > he said that their understanding is that any actual combat mission in > the A-10 is strictly one-way. Titanium bathtub or no, modern AA weapons > will allow a pretty sure kill of the plane by any reasonably well-equipped > ground force, according to him. > > ---Peter Sorry, that does sound a little dumb, doesn't it? I forgot to run it through the hyperbole filter before I posted. Please accept my apologies and allow me to elaborate: It *LOOKED* like something caught fire inside the tanks on the videotape I saw. The owner of the tape claimed that these were depleted uranium rounds igniting the air. A couple of things could make it appear this way: The energy from the round could raise the air temperature above the flash-point of some materials inside the tank. This is what happens, I'm told, when a submarine hull fails at depth, the sailors burn before they can drown or be crushed. The nickel-steel/uranium vapor could ignite. As metals go, uranium is pretty flammable. I suppose that this could be interpreted as the 'air' igniting, since the air is what you make it, and we've made it into uranium vapor. Anyway, the film showed an old tank being chewed up by an A-10, and there was quite a bit of flame coming from inside the tank during the run. I didn't see anything that looked like a magazine hit. When the A-10 finished its run, the tank was a scorched hulk with holes that you could see daylight through. Technically, I suppose that it is possible to 'ignite' air, but unless we're loading 30mm thermonukes on A-10's, then I don't think that things will get hot enough :-). The A-10 drivers who I spoke to were all gung-ho types. They didn't admit to any shortcomings or vulnerabilities. I guess that it was all standard company line stuff that they were dishing out. They probably perferred thinking that they were invincible. The A-10 is still a great tank-killer. The trick to surviving is to not go cowboying on in solo. If you play as part of the team, then your survivability goes way up. Mech-infantrymen are less likely to point SA-7s at you when your tanks and helicopters are pounding the hell out of their positions. Scott ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Scott L. Babb | These are not my employers opinions, they are mine, | | babb@judo.crsfld.com | and I refuse to keep them to myself. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------