henry@hutto.UUCP (Henry Melton) (01/04/90)
From: henry@hutto.UUCP (Henry Melton) Having had several shot-gun pellets rattle the windows during some New Year noise-making, I have been wondering just how fast the various small caliber pistol/rifle bullets would hit the ground after being fired into the air. You commonly hear of police firing a warning shot into the air, yet I have never heard of such a random shell killing anyone. The physics of figuring the terminal velocity of small tumbling bullets is beyond me. Does anyone know of any real figures? How safe is it to fire a gun into the air? -- Henry Melton ...!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!hutto!henry 1-512-8463241 Rt.1 Box 274E Hutto,TX 78634
military@cbnews.ATT.COM (William B. Thacker) (01/05/90)
From: amdcad!cdr (Carl Rigney) In article <12771@cbnews.ATT.COM> henry@hutto.UUCP (Henry Melton) writes: > >You commonly hear of police firing a warning shot into the >air, yet I have never heard of such a random shell killing anyone. I guess it has been a while since Kent State... Police who've been trained properly don't fire into the air. At least not any more - the bullet *is* going to come down somewhere, and the only person likely to be safe is the fleeing suspect. Likewise you don't fire at someone without knowing what your backdrop will be - where will the bullet go if it misses? Comments on actual training levels found in police belong in a different group, no doubt. >How safe is it to fire a gun into the air? No safer than firing it in a random direction, for the most part. A pretty good rule of thumb is to never fire your weapon without knowing for sure what you'll be hitting. Covering fire in military missions and Vulcan 20mm Chainguns excepted, of course. :-) >Henry Melton ...!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!hutto!henry >1-512-8463241 Rt.1 Box 274E Hutto,TX 78634 -- Carl Rigney cdr@amdcad.AMD.COM {ames att decwrl pyramid sun uunet}!amdcad!cdr "I know exactly what I'm going to hit. That hill over there, and the two next to it."
chidsey@smoke.brl.mil (Irving Chidsey) (01/05/90)
From: Irving Chidsey <chidsey@smoke.brl.mil>
In article <12771@cbnews.ATT.COM> henry@hutto.UUCP (Henry Melton) writes:
<
<
<From: henry@hutto.UUCP (Henry Melton)
<
<
<
<Having had several shot-gun pellets rattle the windows during some New
<Year noise-making, I have been wondering just how fast the various small
<caliber pistol/rifle bullets would hit the ground after being fired into
<the air. You commonly hear of police firing a warning shot into the
<air, yet I have never heard of such a random shell killing anyone. The
<physics of figuring the terminal velocity of small tumbling bullets is
<beyond me. Does anyone know of any real figures? How safe is it to
<fire a gun into the air?
<
<--
<Henry Melton ...!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!hutto!henry
<1-512-8463241 Rt.1 Box 274E Hutto,TX 78634
Heard a news report that the LA police had vigorously enforced a
new law against firing guns outdoors, with lots of publicity, and that one
result was no New Years deaths from random bullets. Supposedly for the
time in years.
Irv
--
I do not have signature authority. I am not authorized to sign anything.
I am not authorized to commit the BRL, the DOA, the DOD, or the US Government
to anything, not even by implication.
Irving L. Chidsey <chidsey@brl.mil>whh@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) (01/05/90)
From: whh@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) In article <12771@cbnews.ATT.COM> henry@hutto.UUCP (Henry Melton) writes: >the air. You commonly hear of police firing a warning shot into the >air, yet I have never heard of such a random shell killing anyone. The >physics of figuring the terminal velocity of small tumbling bullets is >beyond me. Does anyone know of any real figures? How safe is it to >fire a gun into the air? There was a incident during a holiday last year (New Year's '89? July 4th?) in which a child in San Francisco (duaghter of a police officer as I recall) died from being hit in the head by a falling bullet. --Hal ======================================================================= Hal Heydt |Surely the end of the world is at hand: Analyst, Pacific*Bell | Children no longer obey their parents 415-823-5447 | and *everyone* wants to write a book. whh@pbhya.PacBell.COM | --from a Babylonian clay tablet
rick@hpfcdj.hp.com (Rick Greer) (01/08/90)
From: hplabs!rick@hpfcdj.hp.com (Rick Greer) / hpfcdj:sci.military / henry@hutto.UUCP (Henry Melton) / 9:25 pm Jan 3, 1990 / From: henry@hutto.UUCP (Henry Melton) ... You commonly hear of police firing a warning shot into the air, yet I have never heard of such a random shell killing anyone. The physics of figuring the terminal velocity of small tumbling bullets is beyond me. Does anyone know of any real figures? How safe is it to fire a gun into the air? -- Henry Melton ...!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!hutto!henry 1-512-8463241 Rt.1 Box 274E Hutto,TX 78634 ---------- A couple of years ago a man was killed in Denver, Colorado by a shot fired randomly into the air. It was, I think, a shot from a .38 pistol. Someone was simply using a firearm in lieu of a firecracker. The odds of this man being a casualty had to be very small. Nonetheless, he is dead. IMO, it is not safe to arbitrarily fire a gun into the air. Rick Greer I speak for myself, not the Company I work for.
cash@uunet.UU.NET (Peter Cash) (01/10/90)
From: cash@uunet.UU.NET (Peter Cash) In article <12889@cbnews.ATT.COM> hplabs!rick@hpfcdj.hp.com (Rick Greer) writes: >From: hplabs!rick@hpfcdj.hp.com (Rick Greer) >/ hpfcdj:sci.military / henry@hutto.UUCP (Henry Melton) / 9:25 pm Jan 3, 1990 / >From: henry@hutto.UUCP (Henry Melton) >... You commonly hear of police firing a warning shot into the >air, yet I have never heard of such a random shell killing anyone. The >physics of figuring the terminal velocity of small tumbling bullets is >beyond me. Does anyone know of any real figures? How safe is it to >fire a gun into the air? >A couple of years ago a man was killed in Denver, Colorado by a shot fired >randomly into the air. It was, I think, a shot from a .38 pistol. Someone >was simply using a firearm in lieu of a firecracker. The odds of this man >being a casualty had to be very small. Nonetheless, he is dead. IMO, it is >not safe to arbitrarily fire a gun into the air. It goes without saying that the last is true. However, (as a purely theoretical consideration) it seems doubtful to me that someone could be killed by a pistol or rifle bullet fired at a vertical or near vertical angle. The bullet would rise until all of its momentum had been expended, and then would begin to fall. At this point, it would behave like any falling object (just as though the bullet had been dropped from an airplane overhead). As I recall, air resistance imposes a limit on the speed to which any falling body can accelerate, however I don't remember what that speed is. I have a hunch that it's below the threshold of doing serious damage. Anybody out there with a more recent physics course who can help me out? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist. | Peter Cash | (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein) | cash@convex ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
gordonl@microsoft.UUCP (Gordon LETWIN) (01/11/90)
From: gordonl@microsoft.UUCP (Gordon LETWIN) > >From: henry@hutto.UUCP (Henry Melton) > > >... You commonly hear of police firing a warning shot into the > >air, yet I have never heard of such a random shell killing anyone. The > >physics of figuring the terminal velocity of small tumbling bullets is > >beyond me. Does anyone know of any real figures? How safe is it to > >fire a gun into the air? > > > However, (as a purely > theoretical consideration) it seems doubtful to me that someone could be > killed by a pistol or rifle bullet fired at a vertical or near vertical > angle. It's true that the bullet falls with it's terminal velocity, but due to the density and aero-efficient shape, the terminal velocity of a bullet is still high. My specific info comes from a Wall Street Journal article last year about celbrations in some country (Pakistan?) where the locals are heavily armed and where local tradition is to fire, often great numbers of rounds, into the air in celebrations. The article was discussing the aftermath of some big celebratory event, specifically the casualties caused by falling bullets. Included interviews and death counts from local hospitals, etc. Several people were killed by such falling bullets. (With hundreds of people firing automatic weapons into the air, there were a *lot* of bullets falling from the sky.) So, obviously the odds are in favor of not being hit by a randomly falling bullet, but if you are - and presumably if it hits your head - it's fatal. Gordon Letwin
stevem@katmandu.Solbourne.COM (Stephen Matson) (01/11/90)
From: stevem@katmandu.Solbourne.COM (Stephen Matson)
In article <12963@cbnews.ATT.COM> cash@uunet.UU.NET (Peter Cash) writes:
:
:It goes without saying that the last is true. However, (as a purely
:theoretical consideration) it seems doubtful to me that someone could be
:killed by a pistol or rifle bullet fired at a vertical or near vertical
:angle. The bullet would rise until all of its momentum had been expended,
:and then would begin to fall. At this point, it would behave like any
:falling object (just as though the bullet had been dropped from an airplane
:overhead). As I recall, air resistance imposes a limit on the speed to
:which any falling body can accelerate, however I don't remember what that
:speed is. I have a hunch that it's below the threshold of doing serious
:damage. Anybody out there with a more recent physics course who can help
:me out?
The maximum speed that an object falling unaided will attain is 233 Mph I believe.
Fast enough to hurt.
--
E-mail == stevem@Solbourne.COM
"FRODO LIVES" "COLORADO!!" military@att.att.com (Bill Thacker) (01/12/90)
From: military@att.att.com (Bill Thacker) Okay, with today's postings, I thing we've had plenty of anecdotes and speculation. The topic's been reduced to those claiming falling bullets shouldn't hurt much, and those citing second-hand cases where they did. Henceforth, I shall accept neither of these arguments for posting. If you don't think falling bullets are fatal, then you'll have to back it up with references and/or a theoretical proof. If you do think they're fatal, I want first-hand information or references. Just the facts, ma'am. 8-) -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Bill Thacker Moderator, sci.military military-request@att.att.com (614) 860-5294 Send submissions to military@att.att.com
wb8foz@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (David Lesher) (01/12/90)
From: wb8foz@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (David Lesher) When the Israel's arrival induced some of the PLO out of Beirut, the PLO'ites let off thousands of rounds into the air, rather then leave them behind. I recall reading body counts of tens of people PER day being killed by the falling rounds. -- A host is a host & from coast to coast...wb8foz@mthvax.cs.miami.edu no one will talk to a host that's close..............(305) 255-RTFM Unless the host (that isn't close)......................pob 570-335 is busy, hung or dead....................................33257-0335
hamilton@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu (Wayne Hamilton) (01/12/90)
From: Wayne Hamilton <hamilton@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu> cash@uunet says: > However, (as a purely theoretical consideration) it seems doubtful to > me that someone could be killed by a pistol or rifle bullet fired at a > vertical or near vertical angle. The bullet would rise until all of > its momentum had been expended, and then would begin to fall. At this > point, it would behave like any falling object (just as though the > bullet had been dropped from an airplane overhead). As I recall, air > resistance imposes a limit on the speed to which any falling body can > accelerate, however I don't remember what that speed is. I have a > hunch that it's below the threshold of doing serious damage. Anybody > out there with a more recent physics course who can help me out? all i have is anecdote: from my skydiving days, i remember that in the head-low "tracking" position, a skydiver's terminal velocity rises to 120+mph. as a motorcyclist, i have experienced bugs hitting my face at a mere 50mph. the thought of a lead bullet hitting at 120mph is scary enough; its actual TV must be much greater than the skydiver's. if you're up for some impirical research, get a friend to drop a spent slug on your head from a 10th floor window... wayne hamilton U of Il and US Army Corps of Engineers CERL UUCP: {att,iuvax,uunet}!uiucuxc!osiris!hamilton I'net: hamilton@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu Lowtek: Box 476, Urbana, IL 61801; (217)384-4310(voice), -4311(BBS)
chidsey@smoke.brl.mil (Irving Chidsey) (01/12/90)
From: Irving Chidsey <chidsey@smoke.brl.mil>
In article <13031@cbnews.ATT.COM> stevem@katmandu.Solbourne.COM (Stephen Matson) writes:
<
<
< The maximum speed that an object falling unaided will attain is 233 Mph I believe.
< Fast enough to hurt.
<--
< E-mail == stevem@Solbourne.COM
< "FRODO LIVES" "COLORADO!!"
There is no single maximum speed for falling objects!
Irv
--
I do not have signature authority. I am not authorized to sign anything.
I am not authorized to commit the BRL, the DOA, the DOD, or the US Government
to anything, not even by implication.
Irving L. Chidsey <chidsey@brl.mil>DPIROT%UALTAVM.bitnet@ugw.utcs.utoronto.ca (Don Pirot) (01/22/90)
From: Don Pirot <DPIROT%UALTAVM.bitnet@ugw.utcs.utoronto.ca>
I was in the Philippines over the past New Years holiday. On New Years
Eve there, military personnel sometimes celebrate by firing their
weapons into the air.
In the Manila Bulletin of January 2nd there was an account of the
injuries and deaths which occured as a result of this and other
activities (8 dead and 1542 injured, according to the headline).
One of the injured was a 12 year old child who was struck in the head by
a stray bullet.
A couple of days later, there was a further report that the child had
died. There were further details in the later report. Bystanders said
that the child was standing when he was hit. The entry wound was in the
top of his head, and the bullet lodged in his lower jaw. Since a number
of local police were firing their weapons into the air speculation
was that the child was killed by a falling round. There were no details
about what kind of weapons were being fired, nor of the type of round
which killed the child.
Don Pirot, | BITNET: DPIROT@UALTAVM
University Computing Systems, | UUCP: alberta!DPIROT@ualtavm.bitnet
University of Alberta, | ARPA: DPIROT%UALTAVM.BITNET@wiscvm.wisc.edu
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. | What luck for rulers that men do not think.
| Adolph Hitler (1889-1945)shafer@skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov (OFV) (01/23/90)
From: Mary Shafer (OFV) <shafer@skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov>
Proof of fatality of bullets fired in the air:
An article in the Los Angeles Times which mentioned the presence at a
press conference of the mother of a boy who was killed Christmas
88/New Year's 89 by a falling bullet here in LA. The boy was 12 and
was struck on the head by a falling bullet and died three days later.
Those of us who live in the LA area are not quite so surprised by all
this--we have injuries every year and fatalities every few years,
around the holiday season.
These accidents are used to justify re-legalizing fireworks, which it
is claimed the shooting in the air emulates. The argument is that
blowing off a few hands and blinding a few kids with fireworks would
be better than wounding or killing them. On the premise of natural
selection in action, they may have a point, since fireworks tend to
injure their users, where the bullets seem to get bystanders.
[mod.note: I think this and yesterday's posting
pretty well establish the point. - Bill ]
--
Mary Shafer shafer@skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov ames!skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov!shafer
NASA Ames Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA
Of course I don't speak for NASA