GSINCLAIR@VAXC.CC.MONASH.EDU.AU (Geoff Sinclair) (02/06/90)
From: Geoff Sinclair <GSINCLAIR@VAXC.CC.MONASH.EDU.AU>@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au In article <13548@cbnews.ATT.COM>, christ@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Chris Thompson) writes: > What does military law really say about this? Can't an officer legally > give a suicidal order to troops in his/her command (like, charge that > machine-gun)? .... > Seems to me that the trial determines whether they (the troops) > disobeyed orders, but the fact that the mission was dangerous, even > suicidal, has little do do with it. As far as I am aware the limits to the powers of a U.S. Army Officer dealing with subordinates are unchanged since WWII and are close to unlimited. Yes they can order you to jump of a cliff and have you court martialed for disobeying orders, hopefully at the cost of their own careers. Check out two books dealing with the WWII U.S. versus German Army, Fighting Power by M. Van Crevald and A Genius for War by T.N. Dupuy. The German military code had a "mishandling of subordinates" offence and allowed soldiers to complain about their superior officer to their officers' superior, and escalate the complaint to Commander in Chief level if they wanted to. The U.S. code had no such offence and complaints were dealt with by an Inspector General who held advisory capacity only. Also the German soldiers received regular leave, in the U.S army it was at the officers' discretion. Needless to say the books are quite scathing about large sections of U.S. Army man management practice. Geoff Sinclair Internet: GSINCLAIR@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au or GSINCLAIR@vaxc.cc.monash.oz PSImail: PSI%0505235621000::GSINCLAIR
ron@hpfcso.hp.com (Ron Miller) (02/12/90)
From: ron@hpfcso.hp.com (Ron Miller) Re: Trials & suicide orders I had a Commanding Officer who was under the impression that peacetime and wartime standards were different. One of his favorite phrases was, " If this was wartime, I'd shoot you." I have no doubt that with his temper, it would happen. Just for reference, his other favorite phrase was, "How can you be so stupid?" (How do you answer that one?) He was a very unhappy man. He had a very unhappy crew. The Navy had a localized retention problem but his relief was blamed. Ron Miller, civilian
tiwasawa@netxdev.DHL.COM (Takashi Iwasawa) (02/13/90)
From: tiwasawa@netxdev.DHL.COM (Takashi Iwasawa) In article <13892@cbnews.ATT.COM> ron@hpfcso.hp.com (Ron Miller) writes: > >Just for reference, [my commanding officer's] other favorite phrase was, >"How can you be so stupid?" (How do you answer that one?) > How about, "I try to follow your example, Sir!" :-) On a more serious note (must remember this is sci.military!), I agree with Mike Schmitt that the incident in Viet Nam was mishandled by the command. The company commander should have taken the new 2nd lieutenant aside BEFORE sending him to the platoon and told him, "Look, your sergeants have combat experience, you don't. Listen to them if you want to have a chance to finish your tour in one piece." If the platoon commander (the new 2nd lieutenant) still got into the position of giving a foolish order which was refused by his platoon sergeant, the company commander should have gotten there before the media, found out what the real situation was, and if necessary, ORDERED the platoon to take another route (instead of the road which probably had a VC ambush rigged). This takes the platoon commander off the hook, since he is now following orders from HIS superior. If the platoon commander is REALLY stupid and insists that the company commander back him in enforcing his unnecesarily dangerous order, the company commander should order the platoon to go down the road (discipline's got to be preserved), BUT the company commander should also tell the platoon leader in the presence of the platoon, "You are the commander of this platoon. You will LEAD from the FRONT! Get moving down that road!" At this point, failure to obey on the part of the platoon OR the platoon leader should be met with court martial and a stiff sentence. Net Express is not responsible for my opinions expressed above. Takashi Iwasawa (I was a lowly E4 in 1970, fortunately not in Nam)
livesey@solntze.Eng.Sun.COM (Jon Livesey) (02/13/90)
From: livesey@solntze.Eng.Sun.COM (Jon Livesey) In article <13892@cbnews.ATT.COM> ron@hpfcso.hp.com (Ron Miller) writes: > > >From: ron@hpfcso.hp.com (Ron Miller) > >Re: Trials & suicide orders > > >I had a Commanding Officer who was under the impression that peacetime >and wartime standards were different. > >One of his favorite phrases was, " If this was wartime, I'd shoot you." At Aldershot, many years ago, there was a Drill Sergeant whose favourite form of abuse for future officers was "If I were your father, I'd shoot meself". One day, he was in the process of abusing a particularly idle officer in training, who happened to be the Prince of Wales (later the Duke of Windsor). "If I was your father", he began, and then realising that what he was about to suggest was very likely treason, he trailed off into "I'd, I'd, I'd...... h'abdicate!". jon.