scameron@blake.acs.washington.edu (Scott Cameron) (02/21/90)
From: scameron@blake.acs.washington.edu (Scott Cameron) There's really nothing special about most "scatterable" minefields once the mines are on the ground. Friendly (US/NATO) scatterable fields can be AntiTank, AntiPersonnel, or a combination. I believe our AT mines are pressure activated and our APs can be set off by pressure or tripwires. There are three known types of Soviet scatterable mines. Their scatterable AP mine -- the PFM-1 -- is a liquid-filled, butterfly-shaped plastic container. The one's I've seen -- brought back from Afghanistan -- are green, but I'm told they are also made in tan and white. It's pressure detonated and I suppose they could mix some chemical agent in with the liquid explosive if they so desired. The Soviet scatterable AP mine is called the PGMDM. It is emplaced by helo or aircraft. Plastic casing, about 4 lbs of explosive, pressure fused, probably can break tank tracks but not much more. The Soviets also have the ability to surface-lay minefields from their MI-8 helicopters. Chutes attach to each door down which armed AT mines are slid. This allows them to emplace antitank row minefields with great accuracy very quickly. Finally, they're rumored to have a scatterable mine capability with their Multiple Rocket Launcher. Scatterable minefields can be cleared using any of the methods used to clear any other enemy minefield. [All scatterable minefields are enemy minefields to an engineer, since the mine locations are random!] Bangalore torpedoes, mine plows and rollers, men with grapnels and explosives, sweeping with machineguns -- are all methods non-engineer units can use to breach scatter- able minefields. Combat engineers also have access to the Mine Clearing Linear Charge (MICLIC) (pronounced "mick-lick") -- a string of C-4 charges that is shot across the field behind a converted Navy rocket and detonated. A few well-placed rounds from a Combat Engineer Vehicle (M60A1 tank with the main gun replaced by a 165mm demolition gun, plus winching boom and moldboard plow) will also do the trick. Additional high-tech systems like remote controlled breaching tanks are on the drawing boards, but who knows what their fate will be now that the Soviets have decided that they really don't want to rule the world after all. ;-) Soviet breaching equipment is similar to ours. They field three different plow-roller systems -- the KMT-4, KMT-5, and KMT-6. The KMT-4 clears mines from in front of the vehicle's tracks, (as does the -6, but to a greater depth), and the -5 adds a roller arrangement to take out tilt-rod mines as well. They also have bangalore torpedoes (designated the UZ-2), and an explosive line charge, the BDT, which can be assembled up to 500 meters in length. The Red equivalent of the MICLIC are the UR-67 & M1979. The UR-67 is a converted BTR-50, and fires a modified AT-2 missile pulling a 170-meter explosive-filled hose. The M1979 is the same system mounted on a 2S1 SP howitzer chassis instead of on a BTR. --------------- On a completely unrelated note -- can someone tell me how to send email to the USMA -- specifically to usma3? The path on the email message to which I am attempting to reply keeps getting bounced!. [mod.note: I've had the same problem with usma3 myself. - Bill ] -- S.D. Cameron | "...the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear | AOPA | 50 yrs Univ. of Wash. | arms shall not be infringed." -- U.S. Const. | -+- Seattle WA | "I know I promised, but ... " -- Geo. Bush | _____(*)_____ scameron@toby.acs.washington.edu | My opinions, not theirs | WingNut
whh@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) (02/21/90)
From: whh@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) In article <14125@cbnews.ATT.COM> bash@cbnewsd.ATT.COM (thomas.w.basham) writes: > > >From: bash@cbnewsd.ATT.COM (thomas.w.basham) > >One effective but inhumane method I've heard of is herding >animals front of the troops to clear the way. I guess in some >instances "insignificant" people have been used in this manner. >I'm not very fond of this approach. I have heard (but have no documentation) that the Dutch had German POWs clear minefields on Dutch soil after WW2. In order to be sure the fields had been properly cleared, the Dutch had the Germans do the first plowing after they said all the mines were out . . . --Hal ======================================================================= Hal Heydt |Surely the end of the world is at hand: Analyst, Pacific*Bell | Children no longer obey their parents 415-823-5447 | and *everyone* wants to write a book. whh@pbhya.PacBell.COM | --from a Babylonian clay tablet
major@beaver.cs.washington.edu (Mike Schmitt) (02/22/90)
From: ssc-vax!shuksan!major@beaver.cs.washington.edu (Mike Schmitt) In article <14124@cbnews.ATT.COM>, gwh%headcrash.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (George William Herbert) writes: > > > From: gwh%headcrash.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (George William Herbert) > In article <14060@cbnews.ATT.COM> at3080@usma2 (Schmidt Terry CPT) writes: > > > >Does anyone have any information about clearing emplaced scatterable > >minefields? Or does anyone just have any good ideas about how to approach such > >a problem? The Army has thought of a lot of high-tech methods, but nothing > >will be in the hands of troops for ages to come. Suggestions? > > Several friends, some in armour and some in engineers, have all replied to my > querrys about this about like i would have thought: When the mines can be seen > someone with a rifle or machinegun just detonates them by firing into them. > This applies to any noncamoflaged minefield, not just scatterable ones. Well, that's one way. Scatterable mines are usually air delivered by helicoptor as a 'hasty minefield' to block a choke point (or something like that). Given that, they usually just lay on the ground. But, Rule #2 in Emplacing a Minefiled is, to cover that minefield with fire - usually indirect fire from mortars or artillery - sometimes with direct fire. Usually, a combat engineer squad accompanies infantry/armor companies. They have organic 'mine-clearing' equipment - so - call up the engineer squad and let them clear it - it's their job. mms
scameron@blake.acs.washington.edu (Scott Cameron) (02/23/90)
From: scameron@blake.acs.washington.edu (Scott Cameron) In article <14241@cbnews.ATT.COM>, ssc-vax!shuksan!major@beaver.cs.washington.edu (Mike Schmitt) writes: > Well, that's one way. Scatterable mines are usually air delivered by > helicoptor as a 'hasty minefield' to block a choke point (or something > like that). Given that, they usually just lay on the ground. Actually the preferred method, at least in the US Army, is via artillery. > > But, Rule #2 in Emplacing a Minefiled is, to cover that > minefield with fire - usually indirect fire from mortars or artillery - > sometimes with direct fire. Another neat trick is to set up a fire-sack, let the "Threat" get bogged down therein, then drop FASCAM (oops -- FASCAM = FAmily of SCAtterable Mines) behind them to block the exit. Its also handy for closing that hole that the covering force just retreated through... > > Usually, a combat engineer squad accompanies infantry/armor companies. Engineers are usually not attached down below platoon level. So while you may sometimes get 1 squad per company, its more common to have the entire cross-attached engineer platoon held as a batallion asset, and then to have two squads + platoon leader sent out to a company needing engineer support, with the third sqd kept as reserve. (Just exactly what to do with the engineers is still evolving doctrine -- serious consideration is being given to assigning a full EN Company to maneuver Bns. Then you might get an EN plt per company!) > They have organic 'mine-clearing' equipment - so - call up the engineer > squad and let them clear it - it's their job. Usual organic countermine equipment is mine detectors, grappling hooks, bangalores, and demo. Big stuff like MICLICS and the CEV are usually a (engineer) company or batallion asset, depending on the task organization. Things like mine plows (ie -- things that attach to tanks) are usually armor, not engineer, assets. > -- S.D. Cameron | "...the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear | AOPA | 50 yrs Univ. of Wash. | arms shall not be infringed." -- U.S. Const. | -+- Seattle WA | "I know I promised, but ... " -- Geo. Bush | _____(*)_____ scameron@toby.acs.washington.edu | My opinions, not theirs | WingNut
morgan@ms.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) (02/23/90)
From: Wes Morgan <morgan@ms.uky.edu> In article <14241@cbnews.ATT.COM> ssc-vax!shuksan!major@beaver.cs.washington.edu (Mike Schmitt) writes: > But, Rule #2 in Emplacing a Minefiled is, to cover that > minefield with fire - usually indirect fire from mortars or artillery - > sometimes with direct fire. > Actually, you want to cover the areas *around* the minefield with direct fire, thereby channeling <i.e. forcing movement> into the minefield. Once the enemy has entered the minefield, you call in the big boys of indirect fire. We had one platoon of engineers wipe out a company of infantry with this tactic. A little harassing fire, they realize a clear path through it, try to bug out, and....surprise! It's Mr. Minefield! Heh heh heh.... > Usually, a combat engineer squad accompanies infantry/armor companies. > They have organic 'mine-clearing' equipment - so - call up the engineer > squad and let them clear it - it's their job. > One of the nice methods of clearance was under development while I was on active duty <8th Engr Bn, 1st Cav Div, FT Hood, TX>. A jeep trailer contains explosive charges on a *long* wire with a solid-propellant rocket on the end, something like this: ---***-----***-----***-----***-----***-----***-----***-----[[[> The length we tested was about 400 meters. The charges were C4 plastic explosive. Pull the trailer up to the beginning of the minefield, launch the rocket..........when it impacts, the detonator in the nose sets off the charges, thereby creating a nice clear alley through the field. I seem to remember the alley's width as approximately 25 feet. This method seems much nicer than bangalores or fake fronts for CEVs....8) Anyone out there who can give an update on this equipment? Wes Morgan -- The opinions expressed above are not those of UKECC unless so noted. Wes Morgan \ {rutgers,rayssd,uunet}!ukma!ukecc!morgan University of Kentucky \ or morgan@engr.uky.edu Engineering Computing Center \ or morgan%engr.uky.edu@UKMA.BITNET
scameron@blake.acs.washington.edu (Scott Cameron) (02/25/90)
From: scameron@blake.acs.washington.edu (Scott Cameron) In article <14272@cbnews.ATT.COM>, morgan@ms.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) writes: > One of the nice methods of clearance was under development while I was > on active duty <8th Engr Bn, 1st Cav Div, FT Hood, TX>. A jeep trailer > contains explosive charges on a *long* wire with a solid-propellant > rocket on the end, something like this: > > ---***-----***-----***-----***-----***-----***-----***-----[[[> > > The length we tested was about 400 meters. The charges were C4 plastic > explosive. Pull the trailer up to the beginning of the minefield, launch > the rocket..........when it impacts, the detonator in the nose sets off > the charges, thereby creating a nice clear alley through the field. I > seem to remember the alley's width as approximately 25 feet. This method > seems much nicer than bangalores or fake fronts for CEVs....8) > > Anyone out there who can give an update on this equipment? You're describing the MICLIC that I mentioned a few postings ago. The relevant specs on this system (which was developed by the USMC, if I remember right): Rocket: 5-inch Mk22 Mod 4 (coverted naval rocket) Line Charge: 350 ft. long, 5 lbs/foot of C-4. Breach Size: 5m x 100m (15 ft by 300 ft appx) Carrier: M353 3.5 Ton trailer (intended to be towed by APCs or tanks) The trailer looks like a converted ammo trailer -- the conversion consisting of a small tripod at the rear on which the rocket sits before firing. After the charge is fired, the trailer is taken back to the Ammo supply point for reloading. I believe the line charge is command detonated, rather then set off by the impact of the projecting rocket. (This guarantees that the charge is on the ground along its entire length before detonation). The MICLIC was first approved for acquisition by the army in December 1983. -- S.D. Cameron | "...the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear | AOPA | 50 yrs Univ. of Wash. | arms shall not be infringed." -- U.S. Const. | -+- Seattle WA | "I know I promised, but ... " -- Geo. Bush | _____(*)_____ scameron@toby.acs.washington.edu | My opinions, not theirs | WingNut
bxr307@csc.anu.oz (02/25/90)
From: bxr307@csc.anu.oz In article <14272@cbnews.ATT.COM>, morgan@ms.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) writes: : : : From: Wes Morgan <morgan@ms.uky.edu> : : In article <14241@cbnews.ATT.COM> ssc-vax!shuksan!major@beaver.cs.washington.edu (Mike Schmitt) writes: :> But, Rule #2 in Emplacing a Minefiled is, to cover that :> minefield with fire - usually indirect fire from mortars or artillery - :> sometimes with direct fire. :> : : Actually, you want to cover the areas *around* the minefield with direct : fire, thereby channeling <i.e. forcing movement> into the minefield. Once : the enemy has entered the minefield, you call in the big boys of indirect : fire. We had one platoon of engineers wipe out a company of infantry with : this tactic. A little harassing fire, they realize a clear path through : it, try to bug out, and....surprise! It's Mr. Minefield! Heh heh heh.... : Actually I learnt that it was the other way around. You used the minefield to channel the enemy into the areas covered by your weapons. While you must have weapons covering the minefields to prevent their being lifted, if they are encounted by the enemy in a "hasty" attack he will usually attempt to go around before he attempts to breach the obstacle. When he does that, thats when he walks into your specialist AT weapons/etc. :> Usually, a combat engineer squad accompanies infantry/armor companies. :> They have organic 'mine-clearing' equipment - so - call up the engineer :> squad and let them clear it - it's their job. :> : : One of the nice methods of clearance was under development while I was : on active duty <8th Engr Bn, 1st Cav Div, FT Hood, TX>. A jeep trailer : contains explosive charges on a *long* wire with a solid-propellant : rocket on the end, something like this: : : ---***-----***-----***-----***-----***-----***-----***-----[[[> : : The length we tested was about 400 meters. The charges were C4 plastic : explosive. Pull the trailer up to the beginning of the minefield, launch : the rocket..........when it impacts, the detonator in the nose sets off : the charges, thereby creating a nice clear alley through the field. I : seem to remember the alley's width as approximately 25 feet. This method : seems much nicer than bangalores or fake fronts for CEVs....8) : : Anyone out there who can give an update on this equipment? Sounds like a logical development of the WWII "Conga" line clearing charge (which was mounted in a de-engined Bren Carrier towed behind a Churchill AVRE tank. It used a hollow hose which once fired across the minefield was then pumped full of liquid explosive and then exploded. It was however decided to dangerous for actual operational use). The British have also been operating for about 20 years "Giant Viper" which is a post-war development carried in a wheeled trailer towed behind a Centurion AVRE (and I also presume the newer CEVT and Chieftain AVRE's). This uses a more stable liquid plastic explosive than the wartime version and works on the same principle. I find it interesting though that after the war the use of the flail tanks was abandoned. They are only just coming back into use in South Lebanon (with UN forces) and as runway clearance vehicles. I thought that this was an ideal solution to the problem of surface scattered minefield and could, with a little thought be designed to be fitted to any normal gun tank. However there seems to be a considerable deafening silence from the major armies around the world. Brian Ross
steve@uunet.UU.NET (Steve Nuchia) (02/27/90)
From: nuchat!steve@uunet.UU.NET (Steve Nuchia) Mail to original poster bounced. Oh well. As I recall, the question was how to clear a minefield *without* heavy equipment. Helos, tanks, bulldozers and arty are out. If the area is such (or can be made so) that you can drive a truck around it in something approximating a circle, then you can drag a sled behind the vehicle. The sled will follow a path inside that of the truck, and you should be able to spiral in to (nearly) the middle that way. Then a few eccentric passes finish the job. -- Steve Nuchia South Coast Computing Services (713) 964-2462 "If the conjecture `You would rather I had not disturbed you by sending you this.' is correct, you may add it to the list of uncomfortable truths." - Edsgar Dijkstra
chidsey@smoke.brl.mil (Irving Chidsey) (03/01/90)
From: Irving Chidsey <chidsey@smoke.brl.mil>
In article <14338@cbnews.ATT.COM> nuchat!steve@uunet.UU.NET (Steve Nuchia) writes:
<
<If the area is such (or can be made so) that you can drive a truck
<around it in something approximating a circle, then you can drag a
<sled behind the vehicle. The sled will follow a path inside that of
<the truck, and you should be able to spiral in to (nearly) the middle
<that way. Then a few eccentric passes finish the job.
If I were the assigned truckdriver, I would also desire that the
other guy's helos, tanks, arty, etc be similarly unavailable, as I get
nervous when performing before an unfriendly audience.
Irv
--
I do not have signature authority. I am not authorized to sign anything.
I am not authorized to commit the BRL, the DOA, the DOD, or the US Government
to anything, not even by implication.
Irving L. Chidsey <chidsey@brl.mil>jpulliam@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Jacqueline Pulliam) (03/03/90)
From: jpulliam@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Jacqueline Pulliam) In article <14338@cbnews.ATT.COM> nuchat!steve@uunet.UU.NET (Steve Nuchia) writes: >If the area is such (or can be made so) that you can drive a truck >around it in something approximating a circle, then you can drag a >sled behind the vehicle. The sled will follow a path inside that of >the truck, and you should be able to spiral in to (nearly) the middle >that way. Then a few eccentric passes finish the job. Actually, a properly-placed minefield (scatterable or manually emplaced) should not able to be driven around. The whole object of the obstacle's placement is to tie it in to natural and other man-made obstacles so that it must be "bulled through" or deliberately breached (all made infinitely more effective by covering the obstacle with direct and indirect fire). So the clearing method described above would only be useful in the (infrequent?) circumstance where the obstacle location was poorly selected. After all, why even bother with breaching the minefield if bypass is that easy? The best thing the US Army has going right now is the MICLIC, as (very accurately) described by S. Cameron in an earlier posting. By the way, the MICLIC is command detonated after placement, not immediately upon impact; and in at least some major subordinate commands (my experience is with the XVIII Airborne Corps) they are being issued at a rate of one (trailer) per combat engineer platoon. Finally, getting back to the original question about the easiest way to clear a scatterable minefield: wait for the mines to self-detonate (from a safe distance). All US scatterable mines (ADAM and RAAM, anti-personnel and anti-tank respectively) have self-destruct built in, and I believe the Soviet versions do as well (Scott Cameron can probably provide the definitive answer to that one). John Pulliam