mmm@uunet.UU.NET (03/01/90)
From: <ames!ames!claris!portal!cup.portal.com!mmm@uunet.UU.NET> I have some old Air Force ROTC books, and I think they are really superb examples of clear and effective textbooks. The subject matter they cover seems to have great applicability outside the military sphere, applicability to things like running a business, organizing political groups, etc. Skills which are taught include keeping accounts, making an office efficient, training unskilled people to do a job, designing paperwork (and reducing it by consolidating and eliminating forms), etc. It seems to me that these books reflect a course of education which must be of immense utility when applied to the problems of life in general. But not having experienced this education, I realize I could be way off the mark. My question is: is a military education a valuable thing? Would such an education make a person well-qualified to, say, run a restaurant or a hardware store? Or would a military education be a slow and inefficient way to learn skills which could better be learned in some other way? And even if it is a good form of education, what are its principal weaknesses?
davecb%yunexus@uunet.UU.NET (David Collier-Brown) (03/03/90)
From: davecb%yunexus@uunet.UU.NET (David Collier-Brown) ames!ames!claris!portal!cup.portal.com!mmm@uunet.UU.NET writes: [discussion of good ROTC textbooks] >It seems to me that these books reflect a course of education which must be >of immense utility when applied to the problems of life in general. But not >having experienced this education, I realize I could be way off the mark. >My question is: is a military education a valuable thing? Would such an >education make a person well-qualified to, say, run a restaurant or a >hardware store? Or would a military education be a slow and inefficient >way to learn skills which could better be learned in some other way? Well, the most usefull thing for business I ever learned is the art of writing an "appreciation of the situation", which was taught to corporals (!) despite being documented in "Staff Duties in the Field" (a book for senior staff officers..) --dave c-b Ps: Alas, I never had the opportunity to learn much else other than signals (:-)). I'd happily trek down to the USofA and buy a good text or two from the ROTC ciriculum, but what are they called? Does one find them at all universities or just the USAF Academy? And can anyone suggest where I can order them from, to save a looooong trip... -- David Collier-Brown, | davecb@yunexus, ...!yunexus!davecb or 72 Abitibi Ave., | {toronto area...}lethe!dave Willowdale, Ontario, | Joyce C-B: CANADA. 416-223-8968 | He's so smart he's dumb.
siegman@sierra.Stanford.EDU (Anthony E. Siegman) (03/03/90)
From: siegman@sierra.Stanford.EDU (Anthony E. Siegman) >My question is: is a military education a valuable thing? Would such an >education make a person well-qualified to, say, run a restaurant or a >hardware store? Universities have know for years that retired military personnel (Chief Petty Officers, etc.) make superb science department stockroom managers and the like. Presumably because they're reliable, willing to go by the book, like things organized and orderly, keep good records, and don't take any guff from students.
steve@pmday_2.Dayton.NCR.COM (Steve Bridges) (03/03/90)
From: steve@pmday_2.Dayton.NCR.COM (Steve Bridges) Here are my opinions on the subject -- I spend 4 years in AFROTC at Purdue (1981-1985) and was discharged prior to commissioning due to a bum knee.. I throughly enjoyed the 4 years of classes, especially the Junior level classes where they introduce management (I think those are the books you are referring to). A military education teaches people to be LEADERS. Almost all the "successful" people I run into at NCR seem to have had some sort of military education. Granted, ROTC does not provide much of a chance at a real leadership position until the junior year, but there are exceptions. You are constantly being exposed to fellow people who are in a leadership position and you benefit by being exposed to it. My 4 years did a lot to prepare me for the business world. A whole lot of what I learned is applicable to daily business life (even the dreaded Staff Study!). At Det 220 at Purdue, we also learned how to give effective presentations, both in a small group as well as a large group. The biggest briefing I ever had to give was to the entire cadet wing as well as cadre on the progress of the job I was assigned my senior year. What a feeling to get up in front of 250 people, know you are prepared, and to give a good briefing. A lot of non-military educated people would probably c##p in their drawers. To summarize, I feel that a military education gives a person (if they apply themselves) the following advantages: 1. The ability to be a LEADER as opposed to a manager 2. Ability to interact with a small group as well as larger ones. 3. Effective presentation skills 4. Ability to write clear, concise documents -- Steve Bridges | NCR - USDPG Product Marketing and Support OLS Steve.Bridges@Dayton.NCR.COM | Phone:(513)-445-4182 622-4182 (Voice Plus) ..!ncrlnk!usglnk!pmday_2!steve | AOPA #916233 ..!uunet!ncrlnk!usglnk!pmday_2!steve| PP-ASEL, AMEL
morgan@ms.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) (03/05/90)
From: Wes Morgan <morgan@ms.uky.edu> >From: <ames!ames!claris!portal!cup.portal.com!mmm@uunet.UU.NET> >My question is: is a military education a valuable thing? Would such an >education make a person well-qualified to, say, run a restaurant or a >hardware store? Or would a military education be a slow and inefficient >way to learn skills which could better be learned in some other way? > Certain phases of military education are superb. For instance, the standard text on military leadership <I don't recall the FM number> concentrates on case studies; I would recommend this manual to any- one preparing to enter a leadership position of any sort. Many firms base their operations on a staff structure similar to that of a mili- tary unit. The major division of a military staff are Personnel, In- telligence, Planning/Operations, and Supply. Replace "Intelligence" with "Research and Development", and you have most corporate structures in a nutshell. Given this fact, the Army's texts on staff support and organization can be invaluable in the "real world". Consider, too, the Army IPD <Individual Professional Development> courses. These are correspondence courses available to any soldier. The Individual Leadership Development Course, for example, consists of modules such as: Effective Written Communication Conducting Effective Meetings Effective Oral Communication Personal Leadership and several others. Again, I would highly recommend these texts to any- one preparing to assume a leadership or management role in their firm. >And even if it is a good form of education, what are its principal >weaknesses? I am assuming that by "military education", we are referring to the service academies or military schools, such as The Citadel. I think that the discipline instilled by these schools is every bit as important in the 'real world' as the leadership and management skills described above. I've worked with many West Pointers during my military career, and the only serious flaw I've seen is in their dealings with subordinates. Many West Pointers come into active duty with the attitude that they are the 'cream of the crop'; why do you think they're called ringknockers? Thankfully, almost all of them drop this attitude, with a little help from their first savvy platoon sergeant. 8) Should you have the opportunity to hire someone with a military education, I would jump at the chance..........look at it this way; they've had the chance to iron out their bugs while on active duty! Wes Morgan -- The opinions expressed above are not those of UKECC unless so noted. Wes Morgan \ {rutgers,rayssd,uunet}!ukma!ukecc!morgan University of Kentucky \ or morgan@engr.uky.edu Engineering Computing Center \ or morgan%engr.uky.edu@UKMA.BITNET
sysmgr@KING.ENG.UMD.EDU (Doug Mohney) (03/06/90)
From: sysmgr@KING.ENG.UMD.EDU (Doug Mohney) >To summarize, I feel that a military education gives a person (if they >apply themselves) the following advantages: > > 1. The ability to be a LEADER as opposed to a manager This one, I give you, but... > 2. Ability to interact with a small group as well as larger ones. > 3. Effective presentation skills > 4. Ability to write clear, concise documents Anyone with a good liberal arts education should be able to 2-4. However, we can go round and round on the poor state of college education in America until the cows come home. At the U. of Maryland, all students are required to take both freshman and junior level English, so they should be able to knock off #4 easily. Skills #2 & #3 can acquired through a speech class (a lower level elective out of the U of MD "core" classes). [mod.note: Ummm, let's not stray *too* far off the beaten path, shall we ? 8-) - Bill ]
emery@aries.mitre.org (David Emery) (03/06/90)
From: emery@aries.mitre.org (David Emery) I am a graduate of a 4-year private military college (Norwich University, if anyone cares). I've thought about this quite a bit over the years. In my case, money was not a major consideration (I had a 4-year ROTC Scholarship), but at the time I was planning to make the Army my career (but that didn't last too long on active duty..) I spent my Junior year at another, non-military school (Bucknell University), so I think I do have some basis for comparison. Also, one of my best friends is currently teaching at West Point, and we've talked a bit about his experiences, too. So I've asked myself, what did I get from that experience: Good: * Ability to work within a system. In particular, the value of personal credibility and relationships. A lot of people I know STILL haven't learned this lesson. * Leadership. It's a bit hackneyed, but true. Military schools do teach leadership skills. * Discipline. Another cliche, but also true. The problem I had away from Norwich my Junior year was that it took me a long time to get re-adjusted to the civilian climate. In the years since, I've had a lot of call to thank Norwich for my ability to stick with something. But at the time, it was a rather traumatic experience, which is why I went back to Norwich to graduate. * Organization. This goes hand in hand with leadership, but is another skill altogether. In particular, I've learned the hard way about Murphy's Law, and how to give "commands" that are clear, concise and comprehensive. * Writing/communication skills. This is true of me, but not all military school graduates. My writing often reflects my G.I. style, particularly in terms of organization. I like to think of myself as a good writer (but you can judge for yourself...) Also, don't go to the boss without a problem unless you've at least thought about a solution. This principle has contributed significantly to my professional success. Bad: * Social Skills. Military schools are NOT the place to go to meet girls! Also, your peer interactions are fairly well regulated. This is an area where I was badly hurt by attending Norwich. * Academic-oriented education. In general, the emphasis is on the practical. Norwich's greatest strength was its engineering, which emphasized practical engineering over the academic approach. I was rather unprepared for any sort of advanced degree from my time there. Summary: As an engineer (I do think of myself that way), a military education (coupled with some active duty experience) has made me a much better engineer, by giving me the tools to focus my activities on the task at hand. As a person, I have to say that a military education has made little contribution to my overall intellectual and social growth. Would I do it over again the same way? No, given what I know now. I would have capitalized on my academic bent and attended a good undergraduate engineering school, but that still wouldn't have contributed to my social growth. Would I recommend it to someone? Yes, if he is interested in making the military a career. Conditionally yes, if he thinks he needs development in leadership and organization. dave emery Norwich Univ, '78 emery@aries.mitre.org p.s. Norwich admitted females into the military school starting my freshman year (fall 1974). It was a rather traumatic time, but in the long run it was the right decision. If a woman asked me about attending Norwich, I'd personally respond "Only if you plan to make the military your career. Otherwise, no." p.p.s. Contrast with VMI and the Citadel, where they are currently in hot water for not admitting females.
flak@beaver.cs.washington.edu (Dan Flak) (03/06/90)
From: mcgp1!flak@beaver.cs.washington.edu (Dan Flak) In article <14399@cbnews.ATT.COM> ames!ames!claris!portal!cup.portal.com!mmm@uunet.UU.NET writes: > > >From: <ames!ames!claris!portal!cup.portal.com!mmm@uunet.UU.NET> >I have some old Air Force ROTC books, and I think they are really superb >examples of clear and effective textbooks. The subject matter they cover >seems to have great applicability outside the military sphere... >My question is: is a military education a valuable thing? Would such an >education make a person well-qualified to, say, run a restaurant or a >hardware store? Or would a military education be a slow and inefficient >way to learn skills which could better be learned in some other way? Our company hires an educational firm to come in and teach business subjects to its managers. One of the courses is "Effective Presentations". I took it over 20 years ago in ROTC. Back then we called it "How to give a briefing". In my practical experience, I have briefed General Officers. They want pretty much the same level of detail and format as do company vice presidents. My company memos are basically a modified military format letter. The military format makes a good outline for organizing thoughts. We have had some discussions in our office about "executive excusions". You know, where you go out into the woods and learn about teamwork and develop self confidence. I called it basic training. Even if your primary job description in the military is to kill people with an M-16, you also learn how to live away from Mom and Dad, how to live on a paycheck, and how not to depend upon the state for every aspect of your life. You learn about self discipline, personal accountability, and pride of accomplishement. >And even if it is a good form of education, what are its principal >weaknesses? The military sometimes adopts the "one sledgehammer fits all" philosophy. That is, if a particular procument scheme is good for the B-2 bomber then it must be good for a hammer. You now have reason why it costs $700 for a coffee pot. (There are other, legitimate, reasons). My personal philosophy is "Get things done in accordance with the regulations when you can, and in spite of them when you have to". Many military "managers" are afraid to step "outside the box". Regulations are *guidance*. They are not a substitute for good judgement. Some people just don't like to think. They *always* look for the "how was this done before" answer to the problem, and will sometimes force fit a solution that's not appropriate to the situation. They fail to see that not all of the answers are "in the book". -- Dan Flak - McCaw Cellular Communications Inc., 201 Elliot Ave W., Suite 105, Seattle, Wa 98119, 206-286-4355, (usenet: thebes!mcgp1!flak)