Don.Allingham@FtCollins.NCR.COM (Don Allingham) (07/31/90)
From: Don.Allingham@FtCollins.NCR.COM (Don Allingham)
>>>>> On 27 Jul 90 01:55:46 GMT, terryy%earthquake.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Terry Yeung) said:
Terry> The F-21 is the designation of the Israeli Kfir C-2. The US Navy
Terry> and the Marines both borrowed some for aggresser training. I
Terry> believe they've returned them by now.
Isn't the Kfir C-2 Isreal's Mirage III derivative? How does this
compare to other fighters? If I remember correctly, didn't this have
drastically improved performance over the Mirage?
--
Don Allingham
NCR Microelectronics Don.Allingham@FtCollins.NCR.com
Ft. Collins, CO. uunet!ncrlnk!ncr-mpd!Don.Allinghamsysmgr@KING.ENG.UMD.EDU (Doug Mohney) (08/01/90)
From: sysmgr@KING.ENG.UMD.EDU (Doug Mohney) In article <1990Jul31.022951.19855@cbnews.att.com>, Don.Allingham@FtCollins.NCR.COM (Don Allingham) writes: >Isn't the Kfir C-2 Isreal's Mirage III derivative? How does this >compare to other fighters? If I remember correctly, didn't this have >drastically improved performance over the Mirage? It should; Israel has the original plans for the Mirage. I think they plugged in the J-79 engine and added canards. How Israel got the plans is another story to be recited in sci.spy...
terryy%sandstorm.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Terry Yeung) (08/01/90)
From: terryy%sandstorm.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Terry Yeung) In article <1990Jul31.022951.19855@cbnews.att.com> you write: > > >>>>>> On 27 Jul 90 01:55:46 GMT, terryy%earthquake.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Terry Yeung) said: > >Terry> The F-21 is the designation of the Israeli Kfir C-2. The US Navy >Terry> and the Marines both borrowed some for aggresser training. I >Terry> believe they've returned them by now. > >Isn't the Kfir C-2 Isreal's Mirage III derivative? How does this >compare to other fighters? If I remember correctly, didn't this have >drastically improved performance over the Mirage? Yes, the Kfir C-2 is the Israeli derivative of the Mirage III. They built it after the French refused to sell more to Israel. I'm not sure on what the Israelis did to it but I don't believe the airframe was changed too much. They did replace the original engines with the engines that was being used in the A-4 Skyhawk (P&W J79 I think). As for the improved performance, I don't know. The Israelis did have a lot of success with this aircraft. Wasn't this aircraft up for sale to other countries? Anyone know of the status of the F-21? Has the U.S. returned all of them or are we going to keep a few for agressor training? What do our agressor pilots think of them? Terry Yeung terryy@ocf.berkeley.edu
gwh%tornado.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (George William Herbert) (08/02/90)
From: gwh%tornado.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (George William Herbert) In article <1990Jul31.022951.19855@cbnews.att.com> Don.Allingham@FtCollins.NCR.COM (Don Allingham) writes: > >Isn't the Kfir C-2 Isreal's Mirage III derivative? How does this >compare to other fighters? If I remember correctly, didn't this have >drastically improved performance over the Mirage? Yes. The Kfir evolved from the Mirage III. The C-1 was the first model; having as the major change a switch from the (Atar?) french 13-15K lb thrust engine to a US made J79 with over 17 thousand pounds thrust. The big change was rerouting some systems internally and adding cooling air ducts to the airframe (hotter engine). The C-2 variant went further; it took the C-1 and added maneuvering canards. While not large enough to be a primary control surface, they made some significant maneuverability improvements. The Mirage 3 was good for its time; the C-2 Kfir is not as good as the newer superfighters but not far behind. Since then, the C-7 variant has made avionics advances. The Israelis don't consider the Kfir their front-line fighter. They use the F-15 for long range and F-16 for short range high-priority missions. But the Kfir fills in where there isn't a Eagle or Falcon. Hope that's useful. == George William Herbert == ******************************************* == JOAT for Hire: Anything, == * Warning: This Person Contains Chemicals * =======Anywhere, My Price======= * Which are Known to Cause Cancer, Birth * == gwh@ocf.berkeley.edu == ******** Defects, and Brain Damage! ******* == ucbvax!ocf!gwh == The OCF Gang: Making Tomorrow's Mistakes Today
smb@ulysses.att.com (Steven Bellovin) (08/05/90)
From: smb@ulysses.att.com (Steven Bellovin) In article <1990Jul31.223807.6906@cbnews.att.com>, terryy%sandstorm.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Terry Yeung) writes: > The Israelis did have a lot of success with this aircraft. Wasn't this > aircraft up for sale to other countries? They never sold very many because of U.S. restrictions. The Kfir has a U.S.-made engine, and maybe some avionics, thus bringing it under the purview of American export controls. The only folks who could buy the plane were countries the American government was willing to let have high-performance planes -- and then there was pressure on them to buy American-made planes instead.
geoffm@EBay.Sun.COM (Geoff Miller) (08/05/90)
From: geoffm@EBay.Sun.COM (Geoff Miller) In article <1990Jul31.223807.6906@cbnews.att.com> terryy%sandstorm.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Terry Yeung) writes: >Yes, the Kfir C-2 is the Israeli derivative of the Mirage III. They built it >after the French refused to sell more to Israel. I'm not sure on what the >Israelis did to it but I don't believe the airframe was changed too much. >They did replace the original engines with the engines that was being used in >the A-4 Skyhawk (P&W J79 I think). As for the improved performance, I don't >know. The Israelis did have a lot of success with this aircraft. Wasn't this >aircraft up for sale to other countries? ----- The Kfir does indeed use the J79, but this engine is made by General Electric, not Pratt & Whitney. The A-4 uses the J65, which is a license-built (by Curtiss-Wright?) Bristol Orpheus. The American engine has been a factor in the limited export of this aircraft. Also, the F-21 is the Kfir C1, not C2. The C2 has much bigger canards, and probably other, less obvious differences as well. The C1 resembles the Chilean Mirages that were modified with small canards. Geoff -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Geoff Miller + + + + + + + + Sun Microsystems geoffm@purplehaze.sun.com + + + + + + + + Milpitas, California -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
geoffm@EBay.Sun.COM (Geoff Miller) (08/05/90)
From: geoffm@EBay.Sun.COM (Geoff Miller) In article <1990Jul31.022951.19855@cbnews.att.com> Don.Allingham@FtCollins.NCR.COM (Don Allingham) writes: >Isn't the Kfir C-2 Israel's Mirage III derivative? How does this >compare to other fighters? The first Israeli version of the Mirage III was known as the Nesher (Dagger). Argentina was an export customer for this variant; I don't know of any others. The Kfir (Lion Cub) was the follow-on aircraft. I believe the Nesher retained the Mirage's SNECMA Atar engine, unlike the Kfir which has the GE J79. Geoff -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Geoff Miller + + + + + + + + Sun Microsystems geoffm@purplehaze.sun.com + + + + + + + + Milpitas, California -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
bxr307@csc.anu.oz (08/05/90)
From: bxr307@csc.anu.oz In article <1990Aug2.042256.2963@cbnews.att.com>, gwh%tornado.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (George William Herbert) writes: > > > From: gwh%tornado.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (George William Herbert) > > In article <1990Jul31.022951.19855@cbnews.att.com> Don.Allingham@FtCollins.NCR.COM (Don Allingham) writes: >> >>Isn't the Kfir C-2 Isreal's Mirage III derivative? How does this >>compare to other fighters? If I remember correctly, didn't this have >>drastically improved performance over the Mirage? > > Yes. The Kfir evolved from the Mirage III. The C-1 was the first model; > having as the major change a switch from the (Atar?) french 13-15K lb thrust > engine to a US made J79 with over 17 thousand pounds thrust. The big change > was rerouting some systems internally and adding cooling air ducts to the > airframe (hotter engine). The C-2 variant went further; it took the C-1 and > added maneuvering canards. While not large enough to be a primary control > surface, they made some significant maneuverability improvements. The Mirage 3 > was good for its time; the C-2 Kfir is not as good as the newer superfighters > but not far behind. Since then, the C-7 variant has made avionics advances. > > The Israelis don't consider the Kfir their front-line fighter. They use the > F-15 for long range and F-16 for short range high-priority missions. But > the Kfir fills in where there isn't a Eagle or Falcon. > > Hope that's useful. > The history of the Kfir began after the 1967 war when France under De Gaulle decided to implement an arms embargo and prevent delivery of the Mirage 5 (a simplified ground attack version of the Mirage III which have been specially developed bAerospatiale for Israel). The Israeli where justifiably annoyed at this and decided to go looking elsewhere. The Mirage at this time was the hottest thing flying. It had been sold to so many nations it was enought to make Lockheed weep (as they had been beaten so often by the Mirage when attempting to sell their F104). One of those countries was Switzerland whom had elected license manufacture, rather than simple purchase. Mossad managed to turn an engineer involved in the project around to their way of thinking. He had been placed in charge of the destruction of the plans and drawings for the aircraft project. So instead of burning the plans he gave them to Mossad. They not only got the plans to the aircraft BTW, they also recieved the plans to make the machine tools and jigs which were required to make the aircraft itself. The poor engineer was caught though and during his trial it was revealed he had not recieved any money and had done the deed out of guilt he felt over the holocaust. Israeli Aircraft Incorporated (IAI) began manufacture of the aircraft, initially as Mirage III's which they called instead "Daggers" (remember their use in the South Atlantic back in 1982?). Because they already had the ability to manufacture the necessary Atar engined they simply used the original engines as they used in their Mirage III's. Next they decided they wanted to improve the performance of the Mirage. They slotted in a J79 engine in place of the Atar. This aircraft was called the "Neshre" (Eagle). Visibly their was little difference between the two, the Dagger and the Neshre, except for some extra vents to allow better cooling of the slightly larger American engine. Very few of these aircraft were built as it was seen primarily as an intrim model. Next they built the "Kfir" C1 (as described upbove) it was intended primarily as a clear weather interceptor and ground attack aircraft. In otherwords a Mirage 5 replacement. The only external difference in shape between the Kfir C1 and the Neshre was a smaller pointed radome and a large triangular vent at the base of the fin to further improve cooling. Then they built the Kfir C2. At last report in an effort to make their excess Kfir's more competitive on the international market they are attempting to replace the J79 engine with a new version of the Atar (K-50 I believe which is used also in the Mirage F1) so they can overcome the American veto on sale of the machines. Brian Ross
cramer@Sun.COM (Sam Cramer) (08/08/90)
From: cramer@Sun.COM (Sam Cramer) In article <1990Aug5.042733.29042@cbnews.att.com>, geoffm@EBay (Geoff Miller) writes: >The first Israeli version of the Mirage III was known as the Nesher (Dagger). As bxr307@csc.anu.oz points out, "Nesher" is "eagle" in Hebrew. Sam
yaniv%mush.huji.ac.il@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (ran el-Yaniv) (08/11/90)
From: ran el-Yaniv <yaniv%mush.huji.ac.il@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> The Kfir went through four distinct models: 1. C-1. J79 engine, more fuel, many updated subsystems, new avionics fit (Israeli), different nose, better landing gear. 2. C2. Engine as above, updated avionics, canards, nose strakes. 3. TC2. As above, two seater for training and some ECM missions. 4. TC7. Updated avionics and armament subsystems. By the by, the Kfir is NOT based on the Mirage IIICJ, but on the Mirage 5, the plans for which were contributed by an engineer of a Swiss aero. firm. yaniv