worden@decwrl.dec.com (Dennis Worden) (08/08/90)
From: voder!nsc!dtg.nsc.com!worden@decwrl.dec.com (Dennis Worden) I am interested in the fourth Iowa Class Battleship, the USS Wisconsin. The other three have been recommissioned, The Iowa, New Jersey and Missouri, but I haven't heard anything about the Wisconsin. Also, My father-in-law was stationed on board her during WWI and insists that they did a surprise raid on Japan by sailing through the Sea of Japan (he remembers it as about 35 miles wide) and shelling both mainland Japan and whatever is on the east side of the Sea. This sounds a little funny to me, would you send a Battlegroup along the length of Japan?? Seems like it would be easy pick'ins.
henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) (08/13/90)
From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) >From: voder!nsc!dtg.nsc.com!worden@decwrl.dec.com (Dennis Worden) >I am interested in the fourth Iowa Class Battleship, the >USS Wisconsin. The other three have been recommissioned, >The Iowa, New Jersey and Missouri, but I haven't heard >anything about the Wisconsin. I dimly recall that Wisconsin was mothballed in a damaged state after a collision (?), and recommissioning her would require major repairs. This would explain her being left to last. Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
martens@cis.ohio-state.edu (Jeff Martens) (08/13/90)
From: martens@cis.ohio-state.edu (Jeff Martens) In article <1990Aug8.030329.25468@cbnews.att.com> voder!nsc!dtg.nsc.com!worden@decwrl.dec.com (Dennis Worden) writes: >I am interested in the fourth Iowa Class Battleship, the >USS Wisconsin. The other three have been recommissioned, >The Iowa, New Jersey and Missouri, but I haven't heard >anything about the Wisconsin. The Wisconsin was recommissioned quite awhile ago. According to the 8/10/90 "Columbus Dispatch, it is currently a part of the Saratoga battle group in the Atlantic headed towards the Mediterranean. -=- -- Jeff (martens@cis.ohio-state.edu) "Life is like a bad margarita with good tequila, I thought as I poured whiskey onto my granola and faced a new day." -- Peter Applebome, International Imitation Hemingway Competition
phil@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Phil Gustafson) (08/13/90)
From: phil@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Phil Gustafson) In article <1990Aug8.030329.25468@cbnews.att.com> voder!nsc!dtg.nsc.com!worden@decwrl.dec.com (Dennis Worden) writes: >I am interested in the fourth Iowa Class Battleship, the >USS Wisconsin. The other three have been recommissioned, >The Iowa, New Jersey and Missouri, but I haven't heard >anything about the Wisconsin. The Wisconsin (BB-64) was recommissioned October 22, 1988. She and the Missouri (BB-63) will be the only operational battleships by the end of this year. >Also, My father-in-law was stationed on board her during >WWI and insists that they did a surprise raid on Japan >by sailing through the Sea of Japan (he remembers it as >about 35 miles wide) and shelling both mainland Japan >and whatever is on the east side of the Sea. This sounds >a little funny to me, would you send a Battlegroup along >the length of Japan?? Seems like it would be easy pick'ins. I have a reference for the South Dakota (BB-57) bom- barding the Japanese home islands on July 14, 1945. The incident is mentioned as the "first attack of its king since 1863." It is quite credible that the Wisconsin did as your father-in-law remembers in the last few weeks of the war -- by that time the Japanese Navy and Air Force will wll but impotent. -- The most recent (90-2) _Warships_International_ includes a review of the Navy investigation of the Iowa (BB-61) turret explosion. Its author, W. J. Jurens, concludes is is "clear to the point of certainty that something -- it may never be determined exactly what -- was used to sabotage the gun" and that it is "probable that the exact motive, method, and identity of the saboteur(s) will forever remain '...known but to God.'" [In responses to this article, please be careful to attribute those conclusions to Mr. Jurens rather than myself.] The review was prepared before Sandia Laboratories was able to simulate the accidental explosion that resulted in the temporary deactivation of the remaining 16" batteries. The magazine will publish a followup article. I will review either or both of the articles if this group shows interest. -- Meanwhile, the Iowa will go into mothballs with her turret unrepaired. The gun and turret are in pretty good condition, but damage to supporting machinery, light bulkheads, and fire-control equipment adds up to $13 million or so. Congress appropriated $11 million, of which the Navy has spent $3 million so far. The DOD has proposed using the remaining $8 million to support "the new Democratic Nicaraguan Government." Congressional opposition to the retirement of the Iowa and New Jersey (BB-62) seems confined largely to representatives from their home ports. [All Iowa data from the text and footnotes of "What Happened to the _Iowa_, The Ring of Truth(?)" (sic), _Warships_International_, No. 2, 1990. Wisconsin data from _U.S. Battleships_,_An_Illustrated_Design_History_, by Norman Friedman, and contemporary sources.] -- | phil@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG | Phil Gustafson | (ames|pyramid|vsi1)!zorch!phil | UNIX/Graphics Consultant | | 1550 Martin Ave., San Jose CA 95126 | | 408/286-1749
wb9omc@ea.ecn.purdue.edu (Duane P Mantick) (08/14/90)
From: wb9omc@ea.ecn.purdue.edu (Duane P Mantick) >>From: voder!nsc!dtg.nsc.com!worden@decwrl.dec.com (Dennis Worden) >I am interested in the fourth Iowa Class Battleship, the >USS Wisconsin. The other three have been recommissioned, >The Iowa, New Jersey and Missouri, but I haven't heard >anything about the Wisconsin. Wisconsin was also recommissioned and will probably be one of the two that WON'T get mothballed (cry, whimper....). >Also, My father-in-law was stationed on board her during >WWI and insists that they did a surprise raid on Japan I HOPE that the "WWI" was a typo - I suspect you meant to enter "WWII" as NONE of the Iowas was around during WW One. :-) [mod.note: But it'd make a darned interesting plot for "Final Countdown 2" 8-) (For those who have forgotten, "Final Countdown" was a movie in which a nuclear carrier sailed through a time portal and found itself near Pearl Harbor on 7 December, 1941.) - Bill ] >by sailing through the Sea of Japan (he remembers it as >about 35 miles wide) and shelling both mainland Japan >and whatever is on the east side of the Sea. This sounds >a little funny to me, would you send a Battlegroup along >the length of Japan?? Seems like it would be easy pick'ins. I should say, nearly suicidal. I would be extremely surprised if this were true. Even at the end of the war, none of the Allied military commanders even wanted to contemplate getting near the Japanese mainland. For instance, an invasion of the mainland was considered to cost the lives of approx. one MILLION soldiers.....that is a VERY high cost. This has often been stated as a reason why the use of the Atomic Bomb became attractive as a way to end the war. BTW, the USS Wisconsin, BB64, has had a very interesting history. During the Korean conflict, she served as Gen. Douglas McArthur's floating HQ during the landings at Inchon. Later on, she was involved in a collision with another ship that left Wisconsin with a rather large gap in the bow, but sailing under it's own power. The photo looked almost like somebody took a big bite out of her..... Duane
welty@lewis.crd.ge.com (richard welty) (08/15/90)
From: richard welty <welty@lewis.crd.ge.com> In <1990Aug12.214307.2153@cbnews.att.com>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes >I dimly recall that Wisconsin was mothballed in a damaged state after >a collision (?), and recommissioning her would require major repairs. >This would explain her being left to last. Wisconsin was involved in an accident in 1956, when she ramed the DD Eaton in a heavy fog. The bow from the incomplete (in fact, never completed) Kentucky was used in repairs; Wisconsin was returned to service in less than two months. she was mothballed a little less than two years later (March 1958) in good condition. there was an incident with the Missouri which was blown out of proportion during the recommissioning arguments; much misinformation was published in many, many places. in 1949, Missouri ran aground due to severe boneheadedness on the part of her new captain. it took considerable effort, and more than a month, to get her off of Thimble Shoals. it took about a week after that to complete repairs, but Missouri was in perfectly good condition afterwards. i bring this up, because during the controversy over recommissioning, many `experts' claimed that the Missouri was mothballed in poor condition; that her keel was broken; that there was a limitation placed on her upper speed after the Thimble Shoals incident, and so forth. All of this was untrue, all of it was eaten up by the press, and it is possible that this is what Henry remembers. richard (welty@lewis.crd.ge.com) -- ``Join the Navy and see Thimble Shoals''
krs@deimos.caltech.edu (Karl Stapelfeldt) (08/16/90)
From: krs@deimos.caltech.edu (Karl Stapelfeldt)
An interesting fact about the battleship U.S.S. Wisconsin is that
she has a transplanted bow. A collision sometime in the 1950's ruined
her original bow and it had to be repaired. The donor ship was the never
completed battleship U.S.S. Kentucky, fifth ship of the Iowa class.
Work on the Kentucky was stopped when Japan was defeated and military
spending was scaled back. The uncompleted ship sat in the yard for
years while congress debated the merits of scrapping her versus
completing her. The issue was finally settled when the Wisconsin's need
arose - the rest of the Kentucky was scrapped.
I've always wanted to get a close look at the Wisconsin so
I could locate the seam ...
Source: "United States Battleships - A History of America's Greatest
Fighting Fleet". A GREAT book that emphasizes the operational history
of each ship, with 5 or 6 pages for every one. The book has been out
of print for years - check your local library.
Karl Stapelfeldtpstinson@pbs.org (08/21/90)
From: pstinson@pbs.org In article <1990Aug14.033546.8342@cbnews.att.com>, wb9omc@ea.ecn.purdue.edu (Duane P Mantick) writes: > >>by sailing through the Sea of Japan (he remembers it as >>about 35 miles wide) and shelling both mainland Japan >>and whatever is on the east side of the Sea. This sounds >>a little funny to me, would you send a Battlegroup along >>the length of Japan?? Seems like it would be easy pick'ins. > I should say, nearly suicidal. I would be extremely surprised > if this were true. It is indeed true. The Task Group Commander was Admiral Badger and Wisconsin was not alone on this shelling mission. Most of the Iowa and South Dakota class battleships assigned to Task Force 38 were assembled into one strike force the middle of July 1945. Later they were augmented by North Carolina and the British King George V. By the end of the war the Iowa class battleship had the most extensive anti-aircraft armament available to any ship in the fleet. They COULD take care of themselves, so it was not at all suicidal to bombard coastal targets along the length of Japan. Don't forget, the rest of TF-38 was also backing them up with airpower. For more specific details check out Samuel E. Morison's History of U.S. Naval Operations in WWII.
clay@swbatl.sbc.com (Patrick Clay - 529-7760) (08/21/90)
From: clay@swbatl.sbc.com (Patrick Clay - 529-7760) In article <1990Aug14.033546.8342@cbnews.att.com> wb9omc@ea.ecn.purdue.edu (Duane P Mantick) writes: > >>>From: voder!nsc!dtg.nsc.com!worden@decwrl.dec.com (Dennis Worden) >>I am interested in the fourth Iowa Class Battleship, the >>USS Wisconsin. The other three have been recommissioned, >>The Iowa, New Jersey and Missouri, but I haven't heard >>anything about the Wisconsin. > Wisconsin was also recommissioned and will probably be one of the > two that WON'T get mothballed (cry, whimper....). > The Wisconsin and other battleships from WWII did participate in a few shore bombardment missions off Japan near the end of the war. You might be interested to know that Wisconsin just passed through the Suez Canal a couple of days ago on its way to the Gulf of Oman, and maybe from there to the Persian Gulf. I don't envy the Iraqis facing off against that! (There were some stories floating around that her anti-ship cruise missiles were removed and replaced with land attack versions prior to leaving port.) --Patrick Clay -- clay@swbatl: Patrick Clay - 529-7760
donnelly@cod.nosc.mil (Thomas F. Donnelly) (08/21/90)
From: donnelly@cod.nosc.mil (Thomas F. Donnelly)
Duane Mantick writes that
"An invasion of the mainland (Japan) was considered to cost
the lives of approx. one MILLION soldiers. This has often
been stated as a reason why the use of the Atomic Bomb
became attractive as a way to end the war."
The latest issue of Technology Review claims that American estimates
of casualties of an invasion were much lower than this, around 50,000
(I think this is the number in the article). Japan was quite weakened
at this late point in the war, and both sides knew the end was near.
The article states that political reasons for using the bomb may also
have been important to Truman, such as holding a trump card over the
Soviets.hhm@ihlpy.att.com (Herschel H Mayo) (08/22/90)
From: hhm@ihlpy.att.com (Herschel H Mayo) In article <1990Aug21.025400.2322@cbnews.att.com>, donnelly@cod.nosc.mil (Thomas F. Donnelly) writes: > > Duane Mantick writes that > "An invasion of the mainland (Japan) was considered to cost > the lives of approx. one MILLION soldiers. This has often > been stated as a reason why the use of the Atomic Bomb > became attractive as a way to end the war." > > The latest issue of Technology Review claims that American estimates > of casualties of an invasion were much lower than this, around 50,000 > (I think this is the number in the article). Japan was quite weakened > at this late point in the war, and both sides knew the end was near. > The article states that political reasons for using the bomb may also > have been important to Truman, such as holding a trump card over the > Soviets. Sorry, no offence, but this is revisionist bunk born of ignorance and political agendas of those who are attempting to foist it on the public. The Soviets incurred horrible casualties in the storming of Berlin. Their losses multiplied many times would have been the result of an invasion of Japan. Urban fighting in Japan would have bled the allies white in fighting block by block as was the case in Berlin. This subject was debated at length in another group. One poster recommended Imperial Tragedy ( or a similar title ) as a definative debunking of the myth that the Japanese were ready to surrender. Larry Mayo [mod.note: Having had both sides of this issue expressed, let me submit that this is an issue of some contention (to put it mildly). As the topic is both historical and non-technical, let's let it rest at that. Interested readers may tune to soc.history if they wish to continue the debate. - Bill ]
scottmi@ncar.UCAR.EDU (SCOTT MICHAEL C) (08/24/90)
From: boulder!snoopy!scottmi@ncar.UCAR.EDU (SCOTT MICHAEL C) The US *DID*, in fact, use battleships to shell shore targets in Japan at the end of the war -- as far as I know, the twelve modern, fast ships were the ones used - the North Carolinas, the South Dakotas, the Iowas, and the two Alaskas. The targets these ships shelled were apparently industrial ones. The advantages of doing this were obvious; it was impossible to intercept an incoming 16" or 12" shell, and they came without warning, making the usual air- defense precautions (getting people into shelters) problematical. A 16" shell of the type used in our modern battleships weighed 2600 lbs; more than the heaviest aircraft bomb then in use by naval aviation (Navy strike aircraft also made large attacks against the Japanese home islands in the summer of 1945, and in doing so they sank the Japanese battleships Haruna, Ise, and Hyuga. Theydamaged the battleship Nagato. Several Amagi-class aircraft carriers were sunk, as was the heavy cruiser Tone. Industrial targets were also attacked.) The threat from Japanese surface ships was nonexistant (what remained of the Japanese battleship fleet would have been easy pickings for the newer, more powerful US ships.) Even the submarine threat was discounted (prematurely; Lt. Cmdr. Hashimoto was able to sink USS Indianapolis in August. Nonetheless, no US battlehip was torpedoed - or even, I believe, attacked - while shelling the Japanese coast.) --don't like snow, miss Deirdre, and wish I was still in Santa Cruz.