sysmgr@KING.ENG.UMD.EDU (Doug Mohney) (08/22/90)
From: sysmgr@KING.ENG.UMD.EDU (Doug Mohney) Could someone post a summary of the types of chemical weapons we have in our stockpiles? I am more interested in the fillers than the actual delivery mechanisms. The Iraqis might not want to pick a chemical battle with us; so far as the press has been advertising, most of the Iraqi nerve agents are of short (what's short?) duration. I seem to recall we have various long-duration nerve agents which could contaminate areas for weeks, as do the Soviets. Further, no chemical warfare discussion would be complete without addressing the capabilities of the French and the British, who are also in the area and may be called upon for a multi-national response (or, with the French, a unilateral response should their people get hit).
djm@castle.ed.ac.uk (D Murphy) (08/28/90)
From: D Murphy <djm@castle.ed.ac.uk> In article <1990Aug22.025307.16138@cbnews.att.com> sysmgr@KING.ENG.UMD.EDU (Doug Mohney) writes: > > >From: sysmgr@KING.ENG.UMD.EDU (Doug Mohney) >Could someone post a summary of the types of chemical weapons we have >in our stockpiles? I am more interested in the fillers than the actual >delivery mechanisms. > There are basically 4 types of chemical weapon available: 1. Lachrymators - an example being CS (or `tear') gas usually used for crowd suppression or riot control (depending who is using it :-). Its use is unlikely here as it is nonlethal in deployable doses unless the target is compromised in some way - e.g. asthmatic - and these people are unlikely to pass military medicals. 2. Blister agents. These are `mustard gases' and nitrosoureas which use highly reactive nitrogen based compounds to corrode the skin - e.g. R2NCH2CH2Cl ---> R2NCH2 skin \| -------> R2NCH2CH2-skin CH2 R = chemical groups chosen to provide desired physical characteristics 3. Hydrogen cyanide - works by chemically binding cyano groups to metal ions in the body - among them the iron in haemoglobin - and preventing them doing their biological jobs properly, as cyano metal complexes are often more stable than the natural complexes. Certainly the Fe(ii)CN produced by reaction of HCN with haemoglobin prevents oxygen uptake. 4. Organophosphorus nerve agents. These are based on the skeleton: R2P=O | F the fluorine provides a reactive `handle'. R is again a chemical group chosen to impart desired characteristics of volatility, environmental stability and biological penetration. I have a list somewhere of the structures of the main ones (the German sarin, soman and tabun, and the UK developed VX). These things are not gases, but viscous liquids deployed from their containers by a small explosive charge as an aerosol. Thickening agents are also sometimes added to increase persistence. >The Iraqis might not want to pick a chemical battle with us; so far as the >press has been advertising, most of the Iraqi nerve agents are of short >(what's short?) duration. I seem to recall we have various long-duration >nerve agents which could contaminate areas for weeks, as do the Soviets. > I don't know how long they'd last in desert conditions. Chemically the blister agents and nerve agents are readily destroyed by heat and water, and by alkalis. >Further, no chemical warfare discussion would be complete without addressing >the capabilities of the French and the British, who are also in the area >and may be called upon for a multi-national response (or, with the French, >a unilateral response should their people get hit). Dunno about the French - they'll probably go their own way as usual. UK forces have no offensive chemical capability (and haven't had for over 30 years), but the protective gear is very good. Antidotes. The antidote used depends on the weapon. Cyanide poisoning is countered by administration of amyl nitrite to increase heart rate and make what oxygen carrying capacity is left in the blood available faster. Cyanide ion sequestrants, which bind CN- better than Fe(ii) and thus pull cyanide off haemoglobin, can also be used. Blister agents cause direct physical damage just as much as fire would. There is little that can be done except the same sort of treatment administered to burns victims. Nerve agents work by tightly binding to the enzyme acetyl cholinesterase in the synapse between nerve endings and muscles. In normal transmission, the nerve signal causes release of acetylcholine which triggers muscle response. The enzyme breaks down the acetylcholine and recycles the choline. When the enzyme is blocked, the muscle becomes desensitised by continual presence of acetylcholine in the synapse. There are 2 ways of countering this: a. Use of a muscle relaxant such as atropine. This relaxes the muscle by affecting receptors in the synapses which cause the opposite effect to acetylcholine (hence belladonna - Italian women used to put it in their eyes to expand the pupil). b. Use of a phosphorus sequestrant. Chemicals based on, e.g. hydroxylamine H2NOH bind the phosphorus better than the available nitrogen atoms in the enzyme which the nerve agent is blocking. This pulls the agent away from the enzyme and free it again. These actually reverse the action of the nerve agent (unlike a. which just counter the effects) but are toxic themselves, so the most likely field treatment would be to administer atropine to keep the victim alive until the antidote can be given under medical supervision. Murff...
military@cbnews.att.com (William B. Thacker) (08/28/90)
From: uunet!mcgp1!flak (Dan Flak) In article <1990Aug22.025307.16138@cbnews.att.com> sysmgr@KING.ENG.UMD.EDU (Doug Mohney) writes: >The Iraqis might not want to pick a chemical battle with us; so far as the >press has been advertising, most of the Iraqi nerve agents are of short >(what's short?) duration. I seem to recall we have various long-duration >nerve agents which could contaminate areas for weeks, as do the Soviets. I don't think that it's so much that their agents don't last as long as the Soviets, it's the environments in which they will be deployed. The successs of chemical weapons depends very much upon the weather. A calm, cool, moist air mass will keep the chemical agents suspended in the air for a long period of time. (Spray your hornet's nest just before dawn). This does not sound like a typical weather pattern for the Iraqi dessert. Also, vegetation is instrumental in trapping gases and keeping those blister agents where they can do damage. Mixing chemical agents with streams and puddles helps transport the agents in still leathal quantities. Having sticky agents fall on concrete or hard (non absorbant, clay-like) soil will keep them around where they can be tracked into other areas. It seems that a lot of the chemical agents would get soaked into the sand, evaporated, blown away, or otherwise dissapated. Caveat warning: I'm not an expert, I'm just trying to recall a conversation with someone who is. -- Dan Flak - McCaw Cellular Communications Inc., 201 Elliot Ave W., Suite 105, Seattle, Wa 98119, 206-286-4355, (usenet: thebes!mcgp1!flak)
henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) (08/31/90)
From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) >From: uunet!mcgp1!flak (Dan Flak) >It seems that a lot of the chemical agents would get soaked into >the sand, evaporated, blown away, or otherwise dissapated. It is worth remembering that "desert" does not mean "sand". Popular misconceptions to the contrary, much desert is rocky rather than sandy. Real live old-movie-style sand dunes cover only a modest fraction of the Sahara, for example. What things are like in the Kuwait area, I'm not sure. Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
cerebus@bucsf.bu.edu (Tim Miller) (09/02/90)
From: cerebus@bucsf.bu.edu (Tim Miller) On 31 Aug 90, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) said: H> It is worth remembering that "desert" does not mean "sand". Popular H> misconceptions to the contrary, much desert is rocky rather than sandy. H> Real live old-movie-style sand dunes cover only a modest fraction of H> the Sahara, for example. What things are like in the Kuwait area, H> I'm not sure. According to one U.S. soldier in the region, it's "sorta like west Texas." 8) Does anyone have any ideas on how long Hussein's (sp?) tank divisions will be able to keep moving before lack of spare parts grinds them to a standstill? Timothy J. Miller cerebus@bucsf.bu.edu "What shall we call you, oh mighty scorcerer?" "Some call me... ...Tim. Tim the Enchanter."