woody@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Wayne Wood) (09/13/90)
From: eos!woody@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Wayne Wood) In article <1990Sep11.024301.14007@cbnews.att.com> paj@gec-mrc.co.uk (paj) writes: > >dropped from a Mosquito (small 2 engine rec/bomber famous for its >Balsawood construction). ^^^^^^^^^ plywood ? rest was great!!! thanx. /*** woody **************************************************************** *** ...tongue tied and twisted, just an earth bound misfit, I... *** *** -- David Gilmour, Pink Floyd *** ****** woody@eos.arc.nasa.gov *** my opinions, like my mind, are my own ******/
rdd@ukc.ac.uk (Rudnei Dias da Cunha) (09/13/90)
From: rdd@ukc.ac.uk (Rudnei Dias da Cunha) In article <1990Sep11.024301.14007@cbnews.att.com>, paj@gec-mrc.co.uk (paj) writes: > > If I remember rightly, one of the VCs was awarded to Leonard Cheshire, > who led the dams raid. He has since founded the Cheshire nursing > homes and was seen starting the Pink Floyd "Wall" concert in Berlin > with a first world war whistle. > The first Commanding-Officer of the 617 Squadron was Squadron Leader Guy Gibson -- he lead the attack at the dams, was awarded the VC and then was substituted in command, due to the high number of missions he had flown. Eventually, he was to fly again, piloting Mosquitos in the low level daring attacks on occupied Europe. Leonard Cheshire was the second CO of 617. Until Cheshire arrived to 617, it was commanded by the "bomb-man" Nick (?) Martin, who was with Gibson during the Dams raid. Rudnei Dias da Cunha rdd@ukc.ac.uk Computing Lab, University of Kent at Canterbury
pspod@venus.lerc.nasa.gov (09/13/90)
From: pspod@venus.lerc.nasa.gov In article <1990Sep11.024301.14007@cbnews.att.com>, paj@gec-mrc.co.uk (paj) writes... > >The scientist was Barnes Wallis, previously responsible for the R101 ^^^^ >airship (scrapped by the Govt. after the differently designed R100 ^^^^ >crashed) and the Wellington Bomber, famous for its "geodetic" >latticework design which made it able to take extraordinary amounts of >damage and still keep flying. These designations should be reversed, i.e. Wallis designed the successful R100 and the government designed the ill-fated R101.
dps@otter.hpl.hp.com (Duncan Smith) (09/13/90)
From: dps@otter.hpl.hp.com (Duncan Smith) From: paj <paj@gec-mrc.co.uk> >5,000 rpm for stability and extra bounce before being dropped. The Err ... That's faster than a Winchester hard disc! 500rpm? They are still finding bits of the casing at Chesil beach where they test-dropped from Mosquitos. One almost complete one was found only weeks ago. Incidentally, the date of the raid - 16/7 May 1943 - was the time frame for the film _Memphis Belle_. Do you think it's possible that David Puttnam was nodding in the direction of 617? It's said that he had originally wanted to make a film about a British bomber crew .... Or did the Memphis Belle's 25th mission actually occur on the 17th May, 1943? >bomb. First the six ton "Tallboys" and later the ten ton "Grand >Slams" were dropped on the sort of big reinforced concrete buildings >favoured by the Germans, such as the submarine pens at Brest in >France, and the V1, V2 and V3 (huge underground gun) sites in Germany. The Tallboys were dropped DOWN THE SHAFTS of the V3's at Watten, northern France. THAT'S precision bombing. Were Tallboys dropped on V1 and V2 sites? I think 617 led the raid on Peenemunde as pathfinders (from memory), but that was their only involvement with the other V-weapons. 617 also took out the Bielefeld viaduct. At the end of the war they were about to go to Japan to have a crack at some bridges. >They also used Grand Slams and Tallboys on the Tirpitz in Norway, Tallboys only. I don't think they hit her. The squadron describe the rapid deployment of smoke generators during the raid - one or two Tallboys were dropped after sighting on the masts, the last remaining visible part of the ship. One hit the shore. The Tirpitz was eventually disabled by limpet mines planted by the SBS, I think, during a famous raid involving mini submersibles. [mod.note: There were two Tallboy attacks. The first, on 15 Sept.44, scored one hit on the forecastle, leaving Tirpitz unseaworthy. The second attack, 12 Nov 44, scored two or possibly three hits and seven near misses. The hits were very severe, blowing off the side plating and armor for 1/3 of the ship and causing heavy flooding; all struck on the ship's port side, and she began listing. The near misses, also to port, blew out the mud which had been dredged up around the Tirpitz to prevent her from sinking, thus facilitating the roll. Within 8 minutes, the list had reached 60 degrees and stabilized. Eight minutes later, C turret's magazine exploded, blowing part of the turret into a crowd of swimming men, and Tirpitz capsized. - Bill ] Incidentally, it was said that you could see the Tirpitz on the bottom of Tromso fjord for many years but a recent travel guide says no longer. Does anyone know the story? I couldn't get that far north last time I was in Norway. This raid was mounted from airfields in Russia. >If I remember rightly, one of the VCs was awarded to Leonard Cheshire, >who led the dams raid. Guy Gibson! Cheshire took over after Gibson died in 1944. He crashed his Mosquito into a low hill in Holland after pathfinding. >Paul. Duncan
raymond%europa@uunet.UU.NET (Raymond Man) (09/13/90)
From: raymond%europa@uunet.UU.NET (Raymond Man) In <1990Sep11.024301.14007@cbnews.att.com> Paul wrote: >If I remember rightly, one of the VCs was awarded to Leonard Cheshire, >who led the dams raid. I thought it was Guy Gibson who led the raid, however I don't have the book with me. I am not sure if it was the shape was classified that the spherical shape was protraited. The tests done with the Mosquito were with spherical shape bombs, which probably is stronger but bounces less well on water. Just call me `Man'. "And why take ye thought for " -- Matt. 6:28 raymond@jupiter.ame.arizona.edu
fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (Steve Hix) (09/13/90)
From: fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (Steve Hix) In article <1990Sep11.024301.14007@cbnews.att.com>, paj@gec-mrc.co.uk (paj) writes: > > The scientist was Barnes Wallis, previously responsible for the R101 > airship (scrapped by the Govt. after the differently designed R100 > crashed) Ah, yes! The "Capitalist Airship" vs the "Socialist Airship". In 1923 Vickers proposed to the British government that airships would be ideal for long-range passenger air service (and that Vickers should build and operate them). That particular government went down in flames (at the polls), and Ramsay MacDonald's socialist Labour government was voted in. They decided that two airships be constructed, one by Vickers and one by the government, the better of the two to base the airline on. (The government team, btw, had been responsible for the badly-designed R38 that had come apart in flight shortly after WW1. They had only calculated static loads for the R38, assuming that a safety factor of 4 would be enough to cover dynamic loads. The head designer was ignorant of high bending moments in turns at cruise.) Well, it went from bad to worse: The R101 team never tested the adhesive used to glue on reinforcing tape...it reacted with the fabric dope and made the airship's fabric covering as brittle as ten-year-old newspaper. They decided to use diesel engines (for safety reasons "in the tropics"), and didn't keep track of total weight. When they finally inflated it, they found the useful load was not 60 tons, but 35. (Vickers' R100 managed 51-tons useful load.) The R101 also turned out to be divergent in pitch. (The internal gas bags were let out to increase their volume, to get more lift, and no longer being constrained by their previous wiring cradles, could shift forward or back by as much as 14 feet! So much for center of lift...) They eventually signed the thing off and sent the new Air Minister off in it on a trip to India. In bad weather. Getting worse. It managed to get nearly 200 miles when it began to breaks up and crashed, then burned, near Beauvais in France. 48 out of 54 passengers gone. The government then gave up on airships and had Vickers' R100 scrapped. One of Vickers' engineers, working for Barnes Wallis, was a fellow named Nevil Shute Norway, better known as the writer Nevil Shute. His book "Slide Rule" goes into some detail about the whole fiasco. > [617 Squadron] also used Grand Slams and Tallboys on the Tirpitz in > Norway, along with a small spherical version of the bouncing bomb > which was dropped from a Mosquito (small 2 engine rec/bomber famous > for its Balsawood construction). Surely not *balsa*?!! Wasn't it made from plywood? One of the first applications of epoxy in aircraft construction? -- ------------ The only drawback with morning is that it comes at such an inconvenient time of day. ------------
ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib) (09/18/90)
From: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib)
<>> [617 Squadron] also used Grand Slams and Tallboys on the Tirpitz in
<>> Norway, along with a small spherical version of the bouncing bomb
<>> which was dropped from a Mosquito (small 2 engine rec/bomber famous
<>> for its Balsawood construction).
<>
<>Surely not *balsa*?!!
<>Wasn't it made from plywood? One of the first applications of epoxy
<>in aircraft construction?
Hmmm.. why not balsa? Used properly, it would be
strong enough... I did think the Mossie was mostly
sitka spruce, like most wooden airplanes. Most like-
ly in plywood form...
I was under the impression that Balsa was in short
supply during the war... although most was probably
used in tankers.
Iskandar
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The only thing worse than Pesch a'la Frog
Is Frog a'la Peschadrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt) (09/18/90)
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk> In article <1990Sep11.024301.14007@cbnews.att.com> paj@gec-mrc.co.uk (paj) writes: > >The dams breached were the Moehne, the Eder and the Sorpe. I think a >couple of others were attacked but not breached. The attack deprived >German industry in the Ruhr of water (a ton of steel needed eight tons >of water) and also inundated many other factories downstream from the >dams. What effect this had on the German war effort in general I do >not know. I thought the Sorpe was not breached, because its sides were much more angled than the more conventional Moehne and Eder dams. As for effect, I believe Wallis commented that the idea was to deprive the German factories of water, but the result was to give them too much water! >617 squadron then moved to another of Wallis's ideas, the earthquake >bomb. First the six ton "Tallboys" and later the ten ton "Grand >Slams" ... >The bomb would penetrate one or two hundred feet before exploding, >creating a cavity into which the structure would fall. Because of the >cost of the bombs, 617 became experts at pin-point accuracy in >bombing, and were also used for conventional raids involving >high-accuracy, such as hitting a ball-bearing factory in the middle of >a French city and using flares to mark targets for other squadrons. The neat trick with this raid was, they advised the workers via the Resistance that they were coming, and the workers were to go to the canteen. The factory was hit; the canteen was not. (Maybe the USAF should have used Lancasters instead of F-111's on Libya. :-) 617 Squadron also used these bombs against some bridges. "Keyboard? How quaint!" - M. Scott Adrian Hurt | JANET: adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian | ARPA: adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk
military-request@att.att.com (09/24/90)
From: texbell!letni!digi!digi.lonestar.org!user1 ("USER1")
In article <1990Sep13.011955.16148@cbnews.att.com> eos!woody@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Wayne Wood) writes:
|In article <1990Sep11.024301.14007@cbnews.att.com> paj@gec-mrc.co.uk (paj) writes:
|>
|>dropped from a Mosquito (small 2 engine rec/bomber famous for its
|>Balsawood construction).
| ^^^^^^^^^
|plywood ? rest was great!!! thanx.
|
Nope, Balsawood. It is a very light but strong wood. The Mosquito
like many other British and German planes in (early) WWII started
as racing aircraft. Thus the use of bals wood. The Mosquito was
extremely fast and could run in with its bombs and then outrun
any pursuing Mesherschmidts.
Rick.whh@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) (09/27/90)
From: whh@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) In article <1990Sep24.001826.24186@cbnews.att.com> writes: >Nope, Balsawood. It is a very light but strong wood. The Mosquito >like many other British and German planes in (early) WWII started >as racing aircraft. Thus the use of bals wood. The Mosquito was >extremely fast and could run in with its bombs and then outrun >any pursuing Mesherschmidts. The Mosquito was designed from scratch to be a light, very fast, bomber. The original desinged load was 1000 lbs. By the end of WW2, the load was up to 4000. (Compare to the Lancaster that started at 4000 and ended-- in some cases--at 22,000 lbs.) deHaviland was used to working in wood--so that's how the designed the Mosquito. When the prototype was demonstrated, the test pilot did aerobatics in it--and the RAF observer told deHaviland to build an initial order of 50--20 as bomber, 20 as fighters and 10 as photo-recon. The two strangest variants I know of were the Carrier version--with folding wings (the Mosquito was the first two-engined type to *land* on a Carrier- and the anit-shipping version--with a 53-mm cannon (a modified British Army 6-pounder anti-tank gun). The Carrier version (which was never actually used that way) planes were later refitted with fixed wings and sold to Israel. The Israelis used mixed forces of Mosquitos and Mustangs in 1956--probably one of the most effective (and certainly the fastest) combined air units ever flown (at least in concept). --Hal ======================================================================= Hal Heydt | Practice Safe Government Analyst, Pacific*Bell | Use Kingdoms 415-823-5447 | (seen on a bumber sticker) whh@pbhya.PacBell.COM |