dana@walt.cc.utexas.edu (Daniel Schneider) (09/13/90)
From: dana@walt.cc.utexas.edu (Daniel Schneider) What's the conventional wisdom regarding the quality of the Saudi soldier and the Saudi fighter pilot? -Dan
rcm@mtuxo.att.com (R Craig Montero) (09/14/90)
From: rcm@mtuxo.att.com (R Craig Montero) In article <1990Sep13.012400.16916@cbnews.att.com>, dana@walt.cc.utexas.edu (Daniel Schneider) writes: > > > From: dana@walt.cc.utexas.edu (Daniel Schneider) > > What's the conventional wisdom regarding the quality of the Saudi soldier > and the Saudi fighter pilot? > > -Dan > I can not speak for the Saudi soldier or aviator, but I was involved in the training of the Saudi Navy officer corps (as part of the Saudi Navy Expansion Program). The naval officers were well educated and professionally trained (many had been to the Royal Naval Academy or naval academies such as Pakistan which were established by the British). The one factor that was very different from Western standards was the integration of their religious beliefs with tactical doctrine. As one small example, in teaching shiphandling techniques, there was never a discussion of how to get underway with the wind blowing the ship (gunboat) against the pier. Such a condition was considered a sign that the ship should not get underway from Allah. We were specifically instructed not to mention this possibility. Overall, I think they were a solid group. Craig Montero AT&T Bell Labs ex-ShipDriver, USN Views expressed are mine, AT&T owns everything else.
military@cbnews.att.com (William B. Thacker) (09/18/90)
From: uunet!mcgp1!flak (Dan Flak) > From: dana@walt.cc.utexas.edu (Daniel Schneider) > What's the conventional wisdom regarding the quality of the Saudi soldier > and the Saudi fighter pilot? I can't speak directly about Saudi pilots, but in 1970, I went through pilot training with Iranian pilots. There is one thing that connects the two -- Islam. We, as Americans, believe that "God helps those who helps themselves". In the Moslem world, it's "Allah wills". Translated into flying terms, if Allah wills that you will have an accident, then you will have an accident no matter how safely you attempt to fly. If Allah wills to protect you, then no amount of daring will harm you. If things got really hairly some of them would release the controls and exclaim, "Allah has it (the aircraft)". I would have to get in an aircraft moving at 600 knots, 3 feet away from these guys! All the Islamic leadership needs to do in order to create an Army of suicidal, frenzied, fanatics is convince its soldiers and pilots that Allah is on their side. -- Dan Flak - McCaw Cellular Communications Inc., 201 Elliot Ave W., Suite 105, Seattle, Wa 98119, 206-286-4355, (usenet: thebes!mcgp1!flak)
ins_arm@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Roslan MdZaki) (09/24/90)
From: ins_arm@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Roslan MdZaki) In article <1990Sep18.024354.20278@cbnews.att.com> writes: > > >From: uunet!mcgp1!flak (Dan Flak) > >> From: dana@walt.cc.utexas.edu (Daniel Schneider) >> What's the conventional wisdom regarding the quality of the Saudi soldier >> and the Saudi fighter pilot? > >I can't speak directly about Saudi pilots, but in 1970, I went >through pilot training with Iranian pilots. There is one thing >that connects the two -- Islam. That's true. > >We, as Americans, believe that "God helps those who helps >themselves". In the Moslem world, it's "Allah wills". > Dan, you have the misconception about Islam. I will not try to lecture you on Islam but I will try to change a bit about your perception. The statement "God helps those who helps themselves" is indeed what Muslim believes too. And it is not strictly for American. There is a saying for muslim, "God will not change the lives of any group until that group make changes for themselves". See, the statement is exactly the same. We, Muslim is not anymore fanatics than any of Christians or Jews or etc. Yes, we believe in God's will because there are certain thing that you couldn't help avoid. >Translated into flying terms, if Allah wills that you will >have an accident, then you will have an accident no matter >how safely you attempt to fly. If Allah wills to protect >you, then no amount of daring will harm you. If things got >really hairly some of them would release the controls and >exclaim, "Allah has it (the aircraft)". I would have to get ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >in an aircraft moving at 600 knots, 3 feet away from these >guys! I know you are just joking. The common perception about Muslim is that they are really fanatics. And they come from Arab countries. And that's simply not true. I for one, is neither an Arab nor an Iranian. I come from South East Asia. And I don't consider myself to be fanatics nor extreme. Muslim is just human and the only difference is that they believes in Islam. > >All the Islamic leadership needs to do in order to create an Army >of suicidal, frenzied, fanatics is convince its soldiers and >pilots that Allah is on their side. Committing suicide is one of the greatest sin in Islam. Those who commit suicide will go straight to "HE double hockey stick.". And that's true. You can ask any practicing Muslim and they will tell you the same answer. Those Muslim fanatics that were in the headline news are no more extreme than Christians fighting against Christians in N. Ireland. However, we do believe in Jihad which is different from the common American perception. Yes... it's not just kill non-muslim... You can check it out. Any reliable books about Islam will confirm my statement. >-- > Dan Flak - McCaw Cellular Communications Inc., 201 Elliot Ave W., > Suite 105, Seattle, Wa 98119, 206-286-4355, (usenet: thebes!mcgp1!flak) --- Roslan MdZaki | The Johns Hopkins University | ins_arm@jhunix.hfc.jhu.edu Baltimore, Maryland | ins_arm@jhuvms.bitnet
ron@hpfcso.fc.hp.com (Ron Miller) (09/24/90)
From: ron@hpfcso.fc.hp.com (Ron Miller) > Dan Flak: > > Translated into flying terms, if Allah wills that you will > have an accident, then you will have an accident no matter > how safely you attempt to fly. If Allah wills to protect > you, then no amount of daring will harm you. If things got > really hairly some of them would release the controls and > exclaim, "Allah has it (the aircraft)". I would have to get > in an aircraft moving at 600 knots, 3 feet away from these > guys! > I heard from Instructors at a Navy base in Texas (Beeville?) that training Iranians required a special tool. These guys were instructing in TA-4s which uses a tandem seating arrangment. The special tool was a length of broomstick to make the student in the front seat let go of the controls when he got anxious and started talking to Allah in Persian while frozen on the controls! (Clue: jab him on the helmeted head until he let go.) One of the Iranian students also traded shoes with one of my ROTC classmates while we were out flying. It was an unapproved, poor, trade. The Iranian got a nice pair of Corfams...... my classmate got some Iranian issue substitutes. All in all, makes you wonder how our elected leaders thought they were getting a good deal........ Ron
reddy@mips.COM (T.S. Reddy) (09/27/90)
From: reddy@mips.COM (T.S. Reddy) In article <1990Sep24.001941.24564@cbnews.att.com>, ron@hpfcso.fc.hp.com (Ron Miller) writes: > I heard from Instructors at a Navy base in Texas (Beeville?) that > training Iranians required a special tool. These guys were instructing > in TA-4s which uses a tandem seating arrangment. [...] > All in all, makes you wonder how our elected leaders thought they were > getting a good deal........ But if you were being paid in hard cash for much of the hardware (the purchases numbering in the billions of petro$$$$s) it would be a stupid senator (or congressman, or president), who wouldn't agree to such a minor inconvenience. -- T.S.Reddy e-mail: reddy@mips.com