r_anderson@flyppr.enet.dec.com (09/27/90)
From: r_anderson@flyppr.enet.dec.com
Does anyone know the difference between the WWII super-secret
crypto-analysis projects, code-named "Ultra" and "Magic"?
I believe "magic" was the breaking of early Japanese codes,
while "ultra" was the breaking of mid-war codes, but I cannot
find any confirmation of this information...
Rick
[mod.note: Ultra was the name assigned by the British to the
decrypting of the German "Enigma" code, while Magic was the name
of the U.S. efforts against Japan's "Purple" code. - Bill ]
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**********************************************************zimerman@phoenix.princeton.edu (Jacob Ben-david Zimmerman) (10/03/90)
From: zimerman@phoenix.princeton.edu (Jacob Ben-david Zimmerman) The difference between 'magic' and 'ultra' information in WWI is as follows: 'Magic' was the information resulting from the cracking of the Japanese Purple code and various other codes, the most important during the war being JN-25. In essence, the decoded messages themselves were 'magic' information, and were tightly guarded. 'Ultra' messages were instructions to units that were based on Magic information. The first example I can think of is that messages to U.S. Submarines on patrol ordering them to an interception arrived at by 'magic' were called 'ultra messages.' ___________ |-Here comes your father. || | -Henry V || ||acob Zimmerman!+> <zimerman@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> INTERNET === | <zimerman@PUCC> BITnet
welty@lewis.crd.ge.com (richard welty) (10/04/90)
From: welty@lewis.crd.ge.com (richard welty)
In article <1990Oct2.234803.22706@cbnews.att.com>, Jacob Ben-david Zimmerman writes:
*The difference between 'magic' and 'ultra' information in WWI is as
*follows: 'Magic' was the information resulting from the cracking of the
*Japanese Purple code and various other codes, the most important during
*the war being JN-25. In essence, the decoded messages themselves were
*'magic' information, and were tightly guarded.
the above is essentially correct.
* 'Ultra' messages were
*instructions to units that were based on Magic information.
this is a confusing point; Ultra was used with two different
meanings by the allies. the more commonly used meaning today
is to refer to data gathered by the british from intecepted
and decrypted messages generated by the German Enigma machine;
the methodolgy used was based on discoveries by a number
of Polish mathematicians and operatives before the war, and
transfered to the British just in time.
the US used ultra to indicate message of great importance
in the Pacific, based on Magic decrypts (and sometimes on
British Ultra data) as Jacob mentions.
richard
--
richard welty 518-387-6346, GE R&D, K1-5C39, Niskayuna, New York
welty@lewis.crd.ge.com ...!crdgw1!lewis.crd.ge.com!welty
``Don't close your eyes for the crash; you'll miss the best part''
-- Bruce MacInnes, Skip Barber Driving School instructorkitchel@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (Sid Kitchel) (10/05/90)
From: kitchel@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (Sid Kitchel) welty@lewis.crd.ge.com (richard welty) writes: |From: welty@lewis.crd.ge.com (richard welty) |In article <1990Oct2.234803.22706@cbnews.att.com>, Jacob Ben-david Zimmerman w|rites: |*The difference between 'magic' and 'ultra' information in WWI is as |*follows: 'Magic' was the information resulting from the cracking of the |*Japanese Purple code and various other codes, the most important during |*the war being JN-25. In essence, the decoded messages themselves were |*'magic' information, and were tightly guarded. |the above is essentially correct. According to the unofficial history of the NSA, _The Puzzle Palace_, the term "magic" gained a wider use during WWII. It originally was used as above to refer to broken JN-25 messages. Later, as the Japanese military codes were broken, "magic" was used to refer to any broken messages. Former Naval Person, --Sid -- Sid Kitchel...............WARNING: allergic to smileys and hearts.... Computer Science Dept. kitchel@cs.indiana.edu Indiana University kitchel@iubacs.BITNET Bloomington, Indiana 47405-4101........................(812)855-9226
kulkisar@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Aaron Kulkis) (10/05/90)
From: kulkisar@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Aaron Kulkis) In article <1990Oct2.234803.22706@cbnews.att.com> zimerman@phoenix.princeton.edu (Jacob Ben-david Zimmerman) writes: > > > From: zimerman@phoenix.princeton.edu (Jacob Ben-david Zimmerman) > > The difference between 'magic' and 'ultra' information in WWI is as > follows: 'Magic' was the information resulting from the cracking of the > Japanese Purple code and various other codes, the most important during > the war being JN-25. In essence, the decoded messages themselves were > 'magic' information, and were tightly guarded. 'Ultra' messages were > instructions to units that were based on Magic information. The first > example I can think of is that messages to U.S. Submarines on patrol > ordering them to an interception arrived at by 'magic' were called > 'ultra messages.' Unfortunately, I think that the above post only confuses the issue. My memory is a bit fuzzy (it's been years)...but here goes: Magic: Interception of the Japanese 'purple' code. Purple was broken in the late 30's by US Crypto teams. We had the Japanese Declaration of War on the US typed up and ready to go before the Japanese embassy staff did. Only problem was that we had no idea what they were going to do exactly. Hence Pearl Harbor was still somewhat Ultra: Interceptions of German codes using the Enigma machine. I remember 2 somewhat conflicting stories about how British were able to duplicate the machine... 1: Crucial parts smuggled out through Poland by a diplomat of some nationality which I have forgotten. 2: Someone was able to get a close look at an Enigma machine and rebuilt from memory in Britain. The confusion on Zimmaerman's part above seems to stem from the US military's security classification scheme which is, as best I know: (Anybody correct me if I have some detail wrong here) Official Use Only Confidential Secret Top Secret Eyes Only but during WW2, they wanted a new classification for all of the info that the crypto guys were giving them...between Top Secret and Eyes Only and the new name was Ultra Secret....hence, all of the messages going out to units as MI or instructions would be called an 'ultra' message, but that was it's security classification, rather than the name of the program. I am not aware of the continuation of the Ultra Secret classification after WW2 within the US Military. So, Ultra, as a name in itself, generally refers to the intercepted German messages, while the messages to units with instructions or intelligence are more properly referred to as Ultra Secret messages. See the MUST-READ book for anyone interested in cryptography The_Code_Breakers by David Kahn. (Sorry, don't have the Dewey # memorized on this one.. yer just gonna have to look it up for yourself!) There used to be a psycho kitty here, Ackphffzzzt! It's Bill, Oh where, oh where did my psycho kitty go... Aaron R. Kulkis Ancient Engineer
henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) (10/08/90)
From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) >From: kulkisar@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Aaron Kulkis) >... during WW2, they wanted a new classification for all of the info >that the crypto guys were giving them...between Top Secret and Eyes Only >and the new name was Ultra Secret... Don't know if the situation in the US was the same as in Britain, but the British designation for Ultra Secret material was "Top Secret U". This obscured the existence of the extra level of classification: anyone who didn't know what the "U" meant would just think this was Top Secret with some mysterious secondary qualifier. -- Imagine life with OS/360 the standard | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology operating system. Now think about X. | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
welty@lewis.crd.ge.com (richard welty) (10/11/90)
From: welty@lewis.crd.ge.com (richard welty)
[mod.note: Followups to soc.history. - Bill ]
In article <1990Oct5.034331.1036@cbnews.att.com>, Aaron Kulkis writes:
*Magic: Interception of the Japanese 'purple' code.
* Purple was broken in the late 30's by US Crypto teams.
* We had the Japanese Declaration of War on the US
* typed up and ready to go before the Japanese embassy staff
* did. Only problem was that we had no idea what they
* were going to do exactly. Hence Pearl Harbor was
*still somewhat
er, not quite. the document that was decoded was the 14 point
message which effectively broke off negotiations between Japan
and the US; there was no formal declaration of war by Japan
before the Pearl Harbor attack. but war was expected, as evidenced
by the message that was sent out to US forces in the Pacific
a week earlier, saying `this is a war warning'. Roosevelt's
reaction upon reading the 14 point message was `this means war'.
the essential problem was that this valuble intelligence was
mishandled, just as the war warning message of one week earlier
was interpreted differently in the various commands in the
Pacific.
the best place to go to start learning about this episode
is probably
_At Dawn We Slept_, by Gordon Prange
the `roosevelt-did-it' camp would probably prefer you read
_Infamy_, by John Toland
but i have very little respect for the book.
cheers,
richard
--
richard welty 518-387-6346, GE R&D, K1-5C39, Niskayuna, New York
welty@lewis.crd.ge.com ...!crdgw1!lewis.crd.ge.com!welty
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