hgb@catalina.opt-sci.arizona.edu (Hubert Bartels) (10/10/90)
From: Hubert Bartels <hgb@catalina.opt-sci.arizona.edu> Being a fan of Mil-24 helicopters, ( Hinds), I was wondering what has happened to East German aircraft, now that Germany has reunited. for example, East Germany is supposed to have 30 odd Hind D assault helicopters. Have these been transfered to NATO? What other strange aircraft might be flying under NATO colors? Hubert Bartels Hubert Bartels INTERNET: hgb@catalina.opt-sci.arizona.edu Optical Sciences Center VOICE:(602)-621-2032 University of Arizona "To a WWWA trouble consultant, recklessness is Tucson, AZ, USA 85721 a way of life" Kei, Dirty Pair's Great Adventure
henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) (10/11/90)
From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) >From: Hubert Bartels <hgb@catalina.opt-sci.arizona.edu> > Being a fan of Mil-24 helicopters, ( Hinds), I was wondering what > has happened to East German aircraft, now that Germany has reunited... The German air forces have, in principle, reunited too. Details on this are still being worked out, last I heard. Yes, the East German half still has all its Soviet-built equipment. In fact, there was some fuss a little while ago over MiG-29 deliveries -- the West Germans wanted to cancel them, while the Soviets said "those were firm orders, you *will* pay for them and take delivery". (!) Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry -- Imagine life with OS/360 the standard | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology operating system. Now think about X. | henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
bxr307@csc.anu.oz.au (10/15/90)
From: bxr307@csc.anu.oz.au In article <1990Oct11.051011.29673@cbnews.att.com>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: > From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) >>From: Hubert Bartels <hgb@catalina.opt-sci.arizona.edu> >> Being a fan of Mil-24 helicopters, ( Hinds), I was wondering what >> has happened to East German aircraft, now that Germany has reunited... > > The German air forces have, in principle, reunited too. Details on this are > still being worked out, last I heard. Yes, the East German half still has > all its Soviet-built equipment. In fact, there was some fuss a little while > ago over MiG-29 deliveries -- the West Germans wanted to cancel them, while > the Soviets said "those were firm orders, you *will* pay for them and take > delivery". (!) At last report (that I had heard) the MiG-29's had been returned to the Soviet Union. The East Germans only had about 24 apparently and one of the the "understoods" during the re-unification talks between the East and West German military was that certain items of equipment were going to be returned to the Soviet Union. Another item which has "disappeared" as a consquence is the Su-25 Frogfoots which were operated by the East. Somehow I doubt that the Mi-24 Hinds have been left behind as well. I would presume that some sort of deal was worked out with regards to the monies paid or not paid for the equipment. However I would be surprised that all the technical information (eg user and maintenance manuals) and the pilots returned as well. As a consquence the amount of intelligence which NATO has gained about the capabilities of a lot of the latest Soviet equipment will still have been huge. Brian Ross
bxr307@csc.anu.oz.au (10/16/90)
From: bxr307@csc.anu.oz.au In article <1990Oct15.033810.12838@cbnews.att.com>, bxr307@csc.anu.oz.au writes: |> At last report (that I had heard) the MiG-29's had been returned to |> the Soviet Union. I apologise. It now appears at the latest report I have (6 Oct'1990 issue of Jane's Defence Weekly, remember I am in Oz after all!) that the West Germans have decided to retain the MiG-29's. Apparently 24 aircraft are to be retained in two squadrons in what was East Germany for defensive purposes. Originally the MiG-29's were to be considered too expensive to retain from the viewpoint of spares and maintenance. However the Germans have obviously decided it would be better to retain the aircraft and train pilots to use them rather than pay the Soviet's to take them back. The article made no mention of the other various pieces of Soviet equipment, however I would presume that a similar deal might be cut between the West Germans (Oops! Sorry now.... Germans! ;-) and the Soviets. Even so if there isn't a deal on the other sensitive items I think the Germans have still given NATO a windfall in human intelligence terms with the amount of information will have been left behind. However it will be of less importance than it would have been in the past. Brian Ross
tohall@mars.lerc.nasa.gov (Dave Hall (Sverdrup)) (10/17/90)
From: tohall@mars.lerc.nasa.gov (Dave Hall (Sverdrup)) From: tohall@mars.lerc.nasa.gov (Dave Hall (Sverdrup)) In article <1990Oct15.033810.12838@cbnews.att.com>, bxr307@csc.anu.oz.au writes... > > >From: bxr307@csc.anu.oz.au >In article <1990Oct11.051011.29673@cbnews.att.com>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu >(Henry Spencer) writes: >> From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) >>>From: Hubert Bartels <hgb@catalina.opt-sci.arizona.edu> >>> Being a fan of Mil-24 helicopters, ( Hinds), I was wondering what >>> has happened to East German aircraft, now that Germany has reunited... >> >> The German air forces have, in principle, reunited too. Details on this are >> still being worked out, last I heard. Yes, the East German half still has >> all its Soviet-built equipment. In fact, there was some fuss a little while >> ago over MiG-29 deliveries -- the West Germans wanted to cancel them, while >> the Soviets said "those were firm orders, you *will* pay for them and take >> delivery". (!) The subject of Soviet-built military equipment in the former GDR is a very interesting one. The return of Soviet built aircraft is a simple matter - just fly it back to where it came from. The aircraft, in my opinion, are just the tip of the iceberg. My understanding is that the "Eastern sector" contains a HUGE military infrastructure built up over the last 40 years by the Soviets. Take, for example, a major military airfield installation. It would contain, among other things, the following: a) GCI, air defense and traffic control radar systems with miles of wiring, dedicated buildings and a large HVAC power grid to run it all. The removal of the "espionage-sensitive" transmitters, computers, IFF and ILS systems may be possible, but what about the nuts and bolts aspects? How can they remove the control tower for instance? b) Aircraft repair hangars, hardened shelters, and fuel depots/tank farms. Not at all removable. c) Personnel housing, air raid shelters, hardened command post, runways, perimeter fence, mess hall, etc. Most not removable. Over the years, the GDR has been portrayed as a vast honeycomb of military airfields, army bases, tank depots, artillery posts and command centers. It amazes me that the Soviets are giving away this infrastructure by allowing the former GDR to join NATO. I read where the FRG government has agreed to pay the USSR a couple of billion dollars in consideration of the loss of the GDR. Most news sources implied that the money would be used to supply housing/ employment for the Soviet troops that will be de-mobilized and relocated back to the Rodina. Is some of this payment intended to offset the loss of military installations as well? The Soviet troop withdrawals are planned to last several years. Perhaps they need that long to dismantle/disable their facilites before they transition to NATO control? Has the new German government set any rules for dismantling procedures? Can the Soviets spike the runways and dynamite the control towers if they wish? I am surprised that I have not heard anything in the news about this subject. Have I missed something? Has anyone on the net heard about plans for the disposition of military facilites in the former GDR? >