olorin@wam.umd.edu (David John Schuetz) (10/08/90)
From: olorin@wam.umd.edu (David John Schuetz) Mark Kromer's comments on the Monitor reminded me of one of the revelations of Ken Burns' documentary. I had never before thought of the Civil War as a techno-war, but that's what it was; not just the ironclads, but more accurate guns, better bullets, more deadly artillery shells, and repeating rifles. Were there other major innovations? And how vital were they in the war? It seems that the north and south normally got technology at about the same time, so the net effect was null. I assume the South must have suffered more from the soaring casualty rate, but their generals seem to have adapted quicker to the new tactics. Laura Burchard I can see it now: retro-techno thrillers about the Civil War. [mod.note: I think (vague recollection) that observation balloons were first used in the American Civil War, as well. One wargamer put it this way; the ACW is a great period for gaming, because any tactic you care to think of was tried at least once. - Bill ]
woody@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Wayne Wood) (10/09/90)
From: eos!woody@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Wayne Wood) In article <1990Oct8.030412.11732@cbnews.att.com> olorin@wam.umd.edu (David John Schuetz) writes: >Were there other major innovations? And how vital were they in the war? >It seems that the north and south normally got technology at about the >same time, so the net effect was null. I assume the South must have >suffered more from the soaring casualty rate, but their generals seem >to have adapted quicker to the new tactics. > ah, so it's technology you want??? how about increased logistical capability due to the railroads??? increased communications due to the telegraph? use of heliographs and semaphores? i believe the german general staff sent hordes of observers to evaluate our prosecution of this war... it would appear they learned their lessons well. also... the ACW was the first prosecution of the concept of "Total War" it wasn't enough to destroy the enemies' armed forces, we also had to destroy their ability to make war, hence Sherman's march to the sea. /*** woody **************************************************************** *** ...tongue tied and twisted, just an earth bound misfit, I... *** *** -- David Gilmour, Pink Floyd *** ****** woody@eos.arc.nasa.gov *** my opinions, like my mind, are my own ******/
pt@dciem (Paul Tomblin) (10/11/90)
From: cognos!geovision!pt@dciem (Paul Tomblin) eos!woody@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Wayne Wood) writes: >also... the ACW was the first prosecution of the concept of >"Total War" it wasn't enough to destroy the enemies' armed >forces, we also had to destroy their ability to make war, hence >Sherman's march to the sea. Gwynn Dwyer's TV series about war (I think it was just called "War") credits Napoleon with inventing "Total War". Who's right? (Actually, I'm not even sure about the time scale. Which came first?) [mod.note: Napoleon's campaigns were in the early 1800's (about 1805-1815) while the American Civil War was fought between 1861 and 1865. - Bill ] It was a great series, and had the personal touch too. He takes you to a battle field in France where the Royal Newfoundland Regiment took appalling casualties in a single WWI battle (~90% if I remember correctly). He remarks how all Newfoundlanders, himself included, remember that battle, even if the rest of the world doesn't. -- Paul Tomblin, Department of Redundancy Department. ! My employer probably I'm not fat..... I'm metabolically challenged. ! does not agree with my I'm not underpaid... I'm financially challenged. ! opinions.... nrcaer!cognos!geovision!pt or uunet!geovision!pt ! Me neither.
emery@linus.mitre.org (David Emery) (10/11/90)
From: emery@linus.mitre.org (David Emery) The use of railroads, and the resulting growth of technical troops (such as railroad troops) and planning staffs (such as the German General Staff railroad division) was probably the greatest technological contribution to the war. Technology only counts (IMHO), when it results in a change in organization and/or doctrine. Clearly the use of railroads had significant operational and strategic impact. The increased effectiveness of Minie balls, etc, had more tactical impacts. It's not true that the German General Staff sent "hoardes of observers", but they did spend some time studying the war. There's a book by Jay Luuvas on the European lessons learned from the Civil War. It's facinating reading from several perspectives, including: 1. seeing a non-US view of the war 2. seeing European interpretations of the war 3. seeing the lessons Europeans learned from the war. dave emery emery@aries.mitre.org
oxley@pdn.paradyne.com (Don Oxley) (10/15/90)
From: oxley@pdn.paradyne.com (Don Oxley) In article <1990Oct11.050904.29368@cbnews.att.com> emery@linus.mitre.org (David Emery) writes: >The use of railroads, and the resulting growth of technical troops >(such as railroad troops) and planning staffs (such as the German >General Staff railroad division) was probably the greatest >technological contribution to the war. Technology only counts (IMHO), >when it results in a change in organization and/or doctrine. Clearly >the use of railroads had significant operational and strategic impact. >The increased effectiveness of Minie balls, etc, had more tactical impacts. > A few weeks ago, my local PBS station broadcasted a show called "The Civil War". The show was shown two hours a night for 5 straight nights. In addition to the two technologies mentioned above, they also referred to the ironclad fleets as the strongest naval force ever assembled on earth to that day. They definately got the attention of the European community. Also mentioned was the use of trench warfare around the cities of Richmond and Petersburg, Va. towards the end of the war. Approximately 50 miles of trenches were dug around Petersburg and halted the oncoming Union soliders into a stalemate. The Union countered by digging a tunnel under the trenches and filled it with explosives. The expolsion caused a crater several hundred yards in diameter and the Union charged after the Confederates. But the crater walls were so steep, that the Union soliders could not climb the wall before the Confederates picked them off. The show overall was very well done and very interesting. DonO -- Don Oxley AT&T Paradyne Internet: oxley@pdn.paradyne.com 8545 126th Ave. N. UUCP : uunet!pdn!oxley P.O. Box 2826 Phone : (813) 530-8282 Largo, FL 34649-2826
woody@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Wayne Wood) (10/15/90)
From: woody@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Wayne Wood) In article <1990Oct11.050851.29295@cbnews.att.com* cognos!geovision!pt@dciem (Paul Tomblin) writes: * * * From: cognos!geovision!pt@dciem (Paul Tomblin) * eos!woody@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Wayne Wood) writes: * * * also... the ACW was the first prosecution of the concept of * * "Total War" it wasn't enough to destroy the enemies' armed * * forces, we also had to destroy their ability to make war, hence * * Sherman's march to the sea. * * credits Napoleon with inventing "Total War". Who's right? (Actually, I'm * to the best of my knowledge napoleon never used scorched earth as an offensive tactic. napoleon didn't try to destroy the economic base of the countries he invaded. this is what i meant when referring to total war. corrections welcomed. /*** woody **************************************************************** *** ...tongue tied and twisted, just an earth bound misfit, I... *** *** -- David Gilmour, Pink Floyd *** ****** woody@eos.arc.nasa.gov *** my opinions, like my mind, are my own ******/
ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib) (10/15/90)
From: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib)
*>Gwynn Dwyer's TV series about war (I think it was just called "War")
*>credits Napoleon with inventing "Total War". Who's right? (Actually, I'm
*>not even sure about the time scale. Which came first?)
>From what I recall of the program, Napoleon
was the first to introduce conscription. Be-
fore that, warfare (at least in europe) was
conducted by small, professional armies. I
don't think Napoleon carried war to the local
populations, or used scorched-earth techniques
(although he was, I think, the first to come
up against guerilla warfare (in Spain)).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iskandar Taib | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: NTAIB@AQUA.UCS.INDIANA.EDU | Frog is Frog ala Peach
Bitnet: NTAIB@IUBACS !deichman@cod.nosc.mil (Shane D. Deichman) (10/16/90)
From: deichman@cod.nosc.mil (Shane D. Deichman) In article <1990Oct15.034351.14304@cbnews.att.com> ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib) writes: > >>From what I recall of the program, Napoleon >was the first to introduce conscription. Be- >fore that, warfare (at least in europe) was >conducted by small, professional armies. I >don't think Napoleon carried war to the local >populations, or used scorched-earth techniques >(although he was, I think, the first to come >up against guerilla warfare (in Spain)). > > Actually, Washington employed guerilla warfare tactics against the British in the Revolutionary War, some twenty or thrity years prior to Napoleon's campaigns. Of course, I'm sure the concept of guerilla warfare (i.e., small, mobile units employing hit-and-run tactics and utilizing environment and camouflage) can be traced back to Sun Tzu's time.... -shane d deichman "He who fights then runs away lives to fight another day" -George Washington (paraphrased)
schow%bcarh185.bnr.ca@watmath.waterloo.edu (Stanley T.H. Chow) (10/17/90)
From: bnr-vpa!schow%bcarh185.bnr.ca@watmath.waterloo.edu (Stanley T.H. Chow) From: bnr-vpa!schow%bcarh185.bnr.ca@watmath.waterloo.edu (Stanley T.H. Chow) In article <1990Oct15.034351.14304@cbnews.att.com> ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib) writes: > >From what I recall of the program, Napoleon >was the first to introduce conscription. Be- >fore that, warfare (at least in europe) was >conducted by small, professional armies. I >don't think Napoleon carried war to the local >populations, or used scorched-earth techniques >(although he was, I think, the first to come >up against guerilla warfare (in Spain)). I would have to check for details, but China certainly had various forms of conscription many centuries before Napoleon. Stanley Chow BitNet: schow@BNR.CA BNR UUCP: ..!uunet!bnrgate!bcarh185!schow (613) 763-2831 ..!psuvax1!BNR.CA.bitnet!schow Me? Represent other people? Don't make them laugh so hard.
user1 ("USER1") (10/18/90)
From: texbell!letni!digi!digi.lonestar.org!user1 ("USER1")
In article <1990Oct11.050851.29295@cbnews.att.com> cognos!geovision!pt@dciem (Paul Tomblin) writes:
>From: cognos!geovision!pt@dciem (Paul Tomblin)
>eos!woody@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Wayne Wood) writes:
>
>>also... the ACW was the first prosecution of the concept of
>>"Total War" it wasn't enough to destroy the enemies' armed
>>forces, we also had to destroy their ability to make war, hence
>>Sherman's march to the sea.
>
>Gwynn Dwyer's TV series about war (I think it was just called "War")
>credits Napoleon with inventing "Total War". Who's right? (Actually, I'm
>not even sure about the time scale. Which came first?)
>
>[mod.note: Napoleon's campaigns were in the early 1800's (about 1805-1815)
>while the American Civil War was fought between 1861 and 1865. - Bill ]
Well, not meaning to nit-pick, but I would say "Total War" was
achieved much earlier than the 1800's in the 3rd Roman-Carthrage
war in which after the Romans defeated Carthrage they looted
and burned the city and then put salt in the soil of the entire area
around Carthrage so that nothing would ever grow there again.
Apparantly this worked pretty well because that is how Rome came
to be the great power it was.
I am sure "Total War" came into being even before that. As a matter
of fact if anything we have stepped more away from "Total War"
now than any previous time in history, when war was profitable
for if a country won a war the prize was the ability to plunder
the defeated country (like Iraq plundering Kuwait now).
Of course, this all probably goes in something.history.
Rick
--
_________
________________/ SMU |
\_________|
SMU Crew, Rowing's Finest!!!woody@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Wayne Wood) (10/20/90)
From: woody@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Wayne Wood) In article <1990Oct18.021506.7493@cbnews.att.com$ writes: $From: texbell!letni!digi!digi.lonestar.org!user1 ("USER1") $In article <1990Oct11.050851.29295@cbnews.att.com$ cognos!geovision!pt@dciem (Paul Tomblin) writes: $$From: cognos!geovision!pt@dciem (Paul Tomblin) $$eos!woody@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Wayne Wood) writes: $$$also... the ACW was the first prosecution of the concept of $$$"Total War" it wasn't enough to destroy the enemies' armed $$$forces, we also had to destroy their ability to make war, hence $$$Sherman's march to the sea. $$Gwynn Dwyer's TV series about war (I think it was just called "War") $ $Well, not meaning to nit-pick, but I would say "Total War" was $achieved much earlier than the 1800's in the 3rd Roman-Carthrage $war in which after the Romans defeated Carthrage they looted $and burned the city and then put salt in the soil of the entire area $around Carthrage so that nothing would ever grow there again. $Apparantly this worked pretty well because that is how Rome came $to be the great power it was. $ well, i have ti pick nits also... there is a big difference between trashing a city (or city-state if you prefer) and laying waste to area that constitute respectable countries in their own right. sorry, i just don't see it as the same. the earlier poster who mentioned the Babylonians/Assyrians is closer to being on the same order except that the slaughter was much worse. at least the romans took slaves. /*** woody **************************************************************** *** ...tongue tied and twisted, just an earth bound misfit, I... *** *** -- David Gilmour, Pink Floyd *** ****** woody@eos.arc.nasa.gov *** my opinions, like my mind, are my own ******/
TSOMMERS@zodiac.rutgers.edu (10/23/90)
From: TSOMMERS@zodiac.rutgers.edu >From: eos!woody@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Wayne Wood) >Subject:Re: Civil War technology >Date: 8 Oct 90 22:08:25 GMT >Message-ID:<1990Oct8.220825.7229@cbnews.att.com> >i believe the german general staff sent hordes of observers to >evaluate our prosecution of this war... it would appear they >learned their lessons well. > For the influence of the War Between the States on Europe, see Jay Luvaas' _Military Legacy of the Civil War_.
pmorris@kean.ucs.mun.ca (10/24/90)
From: pmorris@kean.ucs.mun.ca [mod.note: Followups to soc.history. - Bill ] In article <1990Oct11.050851.29295@cbnews.att.com>, cognos!geovision!pt@dciem (P > From: cognos!geovision!pt@dciem (Paul Tomblin) > > It was a great series, and had the personal touch too. He takes you to a > battle field in France where the Royal Newfoundland Regiment took appalling > casualties in a single WWI battle (~90% if I remember correctly). He remarks > how all Newfoundlanders, himself included, remember that battle, even if the > rest of the world doesn't. Indeed we do remember the Battle of the Somme. Actually it is better known in Newfoundland as the July Drive. It happened July 1, 1916). While over 500 Newfoundlanders, known as "the first 500" or better known as "The Blue Puttees" for their distinctly colored leggings, went over the top that day, only about 60 answered roll call the next. The larger campaign was the Battle of the Somme, but the Newfoundlanders took it at Beaumont Hamel. A statue stands there today commemorating their sacrifice. Ironically, the Battle of the Somme coincides with Canada Day. In Newfoundland this is marked rather schizophrenically by celebrations of Canada's nationhood and by Remembrance Services (It was and is our Nov. 11 before that day assumed its remembrance significance.) The last of "The Blue Puttees" is still alive in Newfoundland. His name is Abe Mullett and he's in his nineties. Stig (in Newfoundland)
news@arbi.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de (10/24/90)
From: news@arbi.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de [mod.note: Followups to soc.history. - Bill ] In sci.military you write: >* * also... the ACW was the first prosecution of the concept of >* * "Total War" it wasn't enough to destroy the enemies' armed >* * forces, we also had to destroy their ability to make war, hence >* * Sherman's march to the sea. > >* credits Napoleon with inventing "Total War". Who's right? (Actually, I'm >to the best of my knowledge napoleon never used scorched earth >as an offensive tactic. I think you are right. HE didn't use it. But it was used against him by the Russians (1812). I believe that this tactic was the cause for his retreat. (So, in some way, he introduced the tactic of scorched earth back into modern history). In ancient times the tactic of scorched earth was widely used. (e.g. Ceasar used it against the Gauls. Almost 1/3rd of the population in Gaul died in this war). The first example that is known to me are the wars of the Assyrians against there neighbours. (Although this is not exactly "scorched earth", genocide is more accurate. It was definitely a "total war".) Axel
thornley@uunet.UU.NET (David H. Thornley) (10/24/90)
From: plains!umn-cs!LOCAL!thornley@uunet.UU.NET (David H. Thornley) [mod.note: Followups to soc.history. - Bill ] In article <1990Oct19..15182@cbnews.att.com> raymond%europa@uunet.UU.NET (Raymond Man) writes: > > >From: raymond%europa@uunet.UU.NET (Raymond Man) > >I seem to recall that in J.F.C. Fuller's book (I forgot the title), total >war means involving the whole population of the country. Before the >Napolion wars, most fighting are done by professional soldiers and >mercinaries. > No war has ever included the entire population of a country, except as victims. It is real hard to find a military function for a baby. If we restrict the idea of "whole population," we find that quite a few ancient societies had the idea that all of the free healthy adult males owed military service. Often, the situation was such that most of them could indeed participate in a battle or war, whereas more modern wars typically require more of a logistic base, due to fighting over larger areas, so in this sense modern wars are less total than the ancient ones. (We also have prejudices against slaughtering entire cities, or selling them into slavery.) As an aside, many people seem to be considering Western European warfare from the end of the Thirty Years' War to the French Revolution as a general model of warfare before Napoleon. It doesn't work. The French Revolution and following wars were certainly the most total since the Thirty Years' War, and contributed many techonological innovations, but conscription (in various forms) and any reasonable definition of "total war" were practiced thousands of years before. DHT
cash@uunet.UU.NET (Peter Cash) (10/24/90)
From: convex!cash@uunet.UU.NET (Peter Cash) [mod.note: Followups to soc.history. - Bill ] >Well, not meaning to nit-pick, but I would say "Total War" was >achieved much earlier than the 1800's in the 3rd Roman-Carthrage >war in which after the Romans defeated Carthrage they looted >and burned the city and then put salt in the soil of the entire area >around Carthrage so that nothing would ever grow there again. Is this just an old story, or has it been verified? It seems to me that the quantity of salt that would be required to ruin Carthaginian agriculture would be enormous. (I'll leave the exact calculations to others.) In view of the fact that salt was a precious commodity in the ancient world, I doubt very much that the Romans would squander it in this manner. Moreover, any salt dumped into the soil would leach away in a few years. Thus, the effect of this salinization would be temporary at best. Well, maybe the Romans were as successful with this technology as Hannibal was in using vinegar to break his way through the boulders in the alps... -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist. | Peter Cash | (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein) |cash@convex.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
jmc@Gang-of-Four.usenet (John McCarthy) (10/24/90)
From: jmc@Gang-of-Four.usenet (John McCarthy) [mod.note: Followups to soc.history. - Bill ] I'm pretty sure Simon Sciama's Citizens recounts that the French revolutionary government introduced conscription in the early 1790s, i.e. some years before Napoleon became prominent.