steiny@scc.UUCP (Don Steiny) (02/03/85)
> > Recent hate mail has made me decide to leave the net, > at least for a year or two. When my mail becomes a > source of pain for my loved ones, as it recently has, > it is time to take positive action. I refuse to let > shmucks such as those on down at Princeton do any > more damage. > What's going on here? Gary has been an outstanding member of the USENET community. He has contributed much useful source! Someone killed the goose that lays the golden eggs. This is very bad PR for Princeton. -- scc!steiny Don Steiny - Personetics @ (408) 425-0382 ihnp4!pesnta -\ 109 Torrey Pine Terr. fortune!idsvax -> scc!steiny Santa Cruz, Calif. 95060 ucbvax!twg -/
egs@epsilon.UUCP (Ed Sheppard) (02/04/85)
> > > > Recent hate mail has made me decide to leave the net, > > at least for a year or two. When my mail becomes a > > source of pain for my loved ones, as it recently has, > > it is time to take positive action. I refuse to let > > shmucks such as those on down at Princeton do any > > more damage. > > > What's going on here? Gary has been an outstanding > member of the USENET community. He has contributed > much useful source! > > Someone killed the goose that lays the golden eggs. > > This is very bad PR for Princeton. Yeah! What is going on here? I worked with Gary for a while and he's just about the nicest person I've met. If this keeps up, we'll lose all of the worthwhile netters. Something needs to be done about this sort of thing (i.e. hate mail), but in the anarchic universe of USENET, I can't imagine what it would be. "Sargentizing" the offenders may be a possibility. Anybody have any good ideas? Ed Sheppard Bellcore
honey@down.FUN (code 101) (02/05/85)
I suspect Princeton will survive, notwithstanding Gary's cri du couer. Peter
hans@log-hb.UUCP (Hans Albertsson) (02/08/85)
In article <356@scc.UUCP> steiny@scc.UUCP (Don Steiny) writes: >> >> Recent hate mail has made me decide to leave the net, >> at least for a year or two. When my mail becomes a >> source of pain for my loved ones, as it recently has, >> it is time to take positive action. I refuse to let >> shmucks such as those on down at Princeton do any >> more damage. >> > What's going on here? Gary has been an outstanding >member of the USENET community. He has contributed >much useful source! > > Someone killed the goose that lays the golden eggs. > > This is very bad PR for Princeton. Sure is! I wonder what on earth they could have said, to make him react THAT bad.. Probably made rn encrypt it all on its own... I dunno if I'd call his layings consistently golden, but what the f....n h..k, they're for free, aren't they?? And some I could use, so who's complaining? C'mon, Gary, don't let the lusers get to ya! -- Hans Albertsson, USENET/uucp: {decvax,philabs}!mcvax!enea!log-hb!hans Real World: TeleLOGIC AB, Box 1001, S-14901 Nynashamn,SWEDEN
falcone@erlang.DEC (JOE FALCONE, HLO2-3/N03, DTN 225-6059) (02/08/85)
I don't blame Gary for leaving the net in disgust. I rarely make submissions to the net, but when I do submit something I get flamed at either in the newsgroup or via mail about half of the time. One classic example is the use of automatic flamers at several sites which archive net.sources - if they don't like the submission (say if its a bug report out of place), they send you a form-letter flame. Sometimes they make this judgment after reading only the subject line. I've been a part of the net since the very beginning (when I was hpvax!jrf) and I find this flaming very disturbing. There are just too many people on the net who view their fellow netters as Paths and not as Real People with Real Feelings which can be hurt by sarcasm and ridicule. All the talk about netiquette and liability won't do any good if there are people out there who feel that it is their God-given right to trample on other people's feelings - this country is free, but no one is free to hurt people. My heart goes out to Lauren and Gary and everyone else who gets more than technical criticism on the net. The net is a forum for enlightened discussion, not personal abuse. Unfortunately, the cooler heads did not prevail this time. I suspect that Gary just received one too many saracstic notes and rather than tolerate it he just shut news off. This is very, very sad. I had one of the very first releases of menunix a few years ago, and Gary did some very interesting things. Sure, I had to fix some bugs and rewrite some menu files, but you get what you pay for, and free software is, after all, free. Gary did not over-react; Gary did what I would have done. If the flamers were getting on Gary's case for bugs in menunix, I should remind the net that the latest release of netnews software was not without bugs even though it had gone through some testing. Even the most organized efforts with alpha and beta test sites produce software releases that have problems. My word to those who use the net for personal attacks - Grow Up! Joe Falcone decvax! Eastern Research Lab decwrl!deccra!jrf Digital Equipment tardis! Hudson, Mass. root44!
david@daisy.UUCP (David Schachter) (02/09/85)
In article (437@down.FUN>, Peter Honeyman writes: >I suspect Princeton will survive, notwithstanding Gary's cri du couer. Too bad. (I went there as an undergraduate. I even spoke to Honeyman although he doesn't remember and probably couldn't care.) Over time, the dross drives off the gold. Princeton has been around for over two hundred years. I don't know what Princeton and its Princetonians did to Mr. Perlman but I can imagine. There are a lot of vicious people at Princeton. [This posting represents only my views, not those of my company.] {N.F.Q.}
chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) (02/09/85)
In article (437@down.FUN>, Peter Honeyman writes: >I suspect Princeton will survive, notwithstanding Gary's cri du couer. Sigh. As people like Peter Honeyman drive people like Gary Perlman off the network, the network will end up with greater and greater percentages of people like Peter Honeyman. I suggest that you all look carefully at the positive contributions of Gary Perlman and Peter Honeyman and decide for themselves whether or not this is to be considered forward progress. chuq (just because you are 'famous' doesn't give you the right to be a jerk) -- From the ministry of silly talks: Chuq Von Rospach {allegra,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA Life, the Universe, and lots of other stuff is a trademark of AT&T Bell Labs
hans@log-hb.UUCP (Hans Albertsson) (02/09/85)
In article <437@down.FUN> honey@down.FUN (code 101) writes: >I suspect Princeton will survive, notwithstanding Gary's cri du couer. > > Peter Is common decency taught at Princeton??? It appears it ought to head the curriculum for a few at that ( hopefully still ) worthy instituition. In utter disgust, -- Hans Albertsson, USENET/uucp: {decvax,philabs}!mcvax!enea!log-hb!hans Real World: TeleLOGIC AB, Box 1001, S-14901 Nynashamn,SWEDEN
steiny@scc.UUCP (Don Steiny) (02/11/85)
**
>I suspect Princeton will survive, notwithstanding Gary's cri du couer.
But will Princeton graduates find it easy to get jobs
at companies that subscribe to USENET?
--
scc!steiny
Don Steiny - Personetics @ (408) 425-0382 ihnp4!pesnta -\
109 Torrey Pine Terr. fortune!idsvax -> scc!steiny
Santa Cruz, Calif. 95060 ucbvax!twg -/trb@masscomp.UUCP (Andy Tannenbaum) (02/13/85)
In article <2332@nsc.UUCP> chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: > Sigh. As people like Peter Honeyman drive people like Gary Perlman off the > network, the network will end up with greater and greater percentages of > people like Peter Honeyman. I suggest that you all look carefully at the > positive contributions of Gary Perlman and Peter Honeyman and decide for > themselves whether or not this is to be considered forward progress. > chuq (just because you are 'famous' doesn't give you the right to be a jerk) I would kill for a net full of honeys... Boy, I haven't participated in a USENET flame session since my days as a dashing young star on this dashing young network... Chuqui is using a bit of fallacy here by asking us to compare the positive contributions of Honey and Gary. The point is how you feel about the interaction in question, not their general contributions. But as long as Chuqui asks, I will answer, since both Honey and Gary are too cool to answer for themselves. (I count both among my pals.) Gary was a hacker at UCSD for a long time and he put out some neato software to do statistical hacking and some software of questionable practicality to do menu research. Gary wrote a goofy shar lately, which apparently honey pounced him for. Honey was the king of allegra at BTL for a long time. He was responsible for allowing allegra to be used as the uucp gateway to the world, before ihnp4 or anyone else. Honey was at the center of the honeydanber uucp project, which finally produced the only usable version of uucp. (hdb is now available from AT&T, by the way, too bad there was no fanfare and the prices are outrageous, more on that in some netnews I will soon write for net.bugs.uucp etc.) Honey recently wrote a path disambiguator for mail, and has written many cute hacks in his day. Anyway. Honey is a sometimes caustic individual. Sometimes people feel his wrist should be slapped. Slap slap, honey, you brute. Gary is evidently sensitive to a caustic nature such as honey's. Pet, pet, nice Gary, Honey is a meanie. I still like both honey and Gary. I think (personal opinion here) that honey has contributed more in the way of useful software and services to USENET from my perspective. So what? That's not the point. If honey jumped down Gary's throat, then the question to ask is, did Gary deserve it and was honey too harsh? I think Gary deserved it, and I don't think honey was too harsh. That's because I'm a generally tolerant person, your mileage may differ. I am most appalled by Gary's bleeding-heart attitude about leaving the net, and the bleeding heart support he's been getting from the sensitive-male netter of the 80's. It's enough to make a tall man drown in his own barf. Andy Tannenbaum Masscomp Westford, MA (617) 692-6200 x274 New England Nursing Home for Network Stars
arnold@gatech.UUCP (Arnold Robbins) (02/14/85)
It seems that the really important thing to remember about Princeton is that
it is the "Ivy League" school which will hand Brooke Shields a degree.
--
Arnold Robbins
CSNET: arnold@gatech ARPA: arnold%gatech.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
UUCP: { akgua, allegra, hplabs, ihnp4, seismo, ut-sally }!gatech!arnold
Help advance the state of Computer Science: Nuke a PR1ME today!thompson@dalcs.UUCP (Michael A. Thompson) (02/15/85)
I was saddened to hear of Gary's leaving the net. The net as a
social entity has it's share of abusers and criminals and although
I do not know Gary personally or the exact nature of the "HATE
MAIL" I feel it must be of a particularly vile and offensive nature
to cause this reaction in Gary. It is unfortunate that the net is
so illequipped to deal with this kind of offence, unlike other
social groups we have no disciplinary body to deal with crimes
against the net and in most(all?) cases it would be impossible to
prove an offence against someone by someone in particular due to
the inherent insecurity of the net. Because of this I have two
fears:
1) That a vigilante movement will start where individuals or
even whole sites would be ostracized or inundated with hate mail,
this would be unacceptable as it would be very easy to arrange for
such vigilante groups attention to be focused on an innocent user.
2) That as things are now it is very likely that these
criminal acts will become more and more common.
It's cold outside and the wolves are at the door, I wish I had
a useful suggestion but I can't think of anything to correct this,
I do know however that the ostrich act is not a solution.
--
Signed: Michael A. Thompson
(ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies)
Net address: ...{utcsrgv,dartvax}!dalcs!thompson
Where in the world: Dalhousie University
Halifax, Nova Scotiabae@fisher.UUCP (Shiva the Destroyer) (02/15/85)
>It seems that the really important thing to remember about Princeton is that >it is the "Ivy League" school which will hand Brooke Shields a degree. >-- >Arnold Robbins That's it - if you can't attack the individual, attack his institution, his parentage, his ethnic background, his religion, .... Just the sort of logical reasoning I like the most :-) Quit picking on my school, damn it! If P. Honeyman did anything which bothers you, please be grown-up enough to lay the responsibility on him, and him alone. -- Brian A. Ehrmantraut Ad Maioram Gloriam Hasturi! UUCP: {allegra, astrovax, princeton, twg} !fisher!bae BELL: (609) 452-8991 / (609) 734-7761 USnail: 184 Little Hall, Princeton University, Princeton, NJ 08544
david@daisy.UUCP (David Schachter) (02/20/85)
It's not nice to attack Brooke. My friends at Princeton tell me she's quite smart. It's not her fault that our society equates pretty women with stupid women. If Princeton stinks (and, when I was there, the EECS department did), it is not Brooke's fault. Arguments ad hominem aren't valid.
david@daisy.UUCP (David Schachter) (02/20/85)
Oh, sorry. On my two previous messages, I forgot the disclaimer and the funny quote. Pardon me for wasting bandwidth but forgetting the former could get me in trouble and the latter could get me flamed. Here goes: The opinions expressed in any of my submissions to the Usenet are not necessarily those of Daisy Systems Corp., its subsidiaries, related entities, or employees. The opinions expressed are mine alone and I take responsibility for them. "I am not a crock. Uh, make that 'crook.'"
jsdy@hadron.UUCP (Joseph S. D. Yao) (02/25/85)
> it is the "Ivy League" school which will hand Brooke Shields a degree.
If she earns it, so what? I had a lot of extraordinary or just
"different" students in my class.ems@amdahl.UUCP (ems) (03/02/85)
> > I was saddened to hear of Gary's leaving the net. The net as a > social entity has it's share of abusers and criminals and although > I do not know Gary personally or the exact nature of the "HATE > MAIL" I feel it must be of a particularly vile and offensive nature > to cause this reaction in Gary. I don't know any of the players, and not much of the incident. But it is fun to watch... > It is unfortunate that the net is > so illequipped to deal with this kind of offence, unlike other > social groups we have no disciplinary body to deal with crimes > against the net and I'VE GOT IT! net.peoples.court!!! > in most(all?) cases it would be impossible to > prove an offence against someone by someone in particular due to > the inherent insecurity of the net. Because of this I have two > fears: > > 1) That a vigilante movement will start where individuals or > even whole sites would be ostracized or inundated with hate mail, > this would be unacceptable as it would be very easy to arrange for > such vigilante groups attention to be focused on an innocent user. > > 2) That as things are now it is very likely that these > criminal acts will become more and more common. > > It's cold outside and the wolves are at the door, I wish I had > a useful suggestion but I can't think of anything to correct this, > I do know however that the ostrich act is not a solution. You see, it works like this: A trial *by* your peers in net.peoples.court where all can present their evidence (and refute false evidence) with the convicted party subject to such social punishments as are deemed fitting. These could include ostracisim (sp?), hate mail, ridicule, why, we could even taunt them until they relented! I'm sure you can think of others... E. Michael Smith ...!{hplabs,ihnp4,amd,nsc}!amdahl!ems Computo ergo sum The opinions expressed by me are not representative of those of any other person - natural, unnatural, or fictional - and only marginally reflect my opinions as strained by the language.