mikes@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Mike Sheumaker) (11/22/90)
From: mikes@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Mike Sheumaker) I read an interesting letter to the editor in a magazine called "Warbirds" the other day. A gentleman was asking for help in persuading the proper authorities (FAA, Air Force ?) to allow his group to fly several old planes out of Chanute AFB for placement in a museum. (BTW, Chanute AFB has quitw a few planes on static display, and is supposed to be closed down in the near future.) The specific plane that he mentioned is a B-36. He states in the letter that it is cheaper to get the B-36 airworthy and flown out than to dissassemble it for ground transport. Oh.. the runways have been closed for several years. This immediately raised several questions in my mind: 1. What is usually done to an aircraft on static display? Remove engines, electronics, etc? Plate over access panels, air intakes? 2. Since the runways have been closed for several years, what kind of maintenance would need to be done to them in order to support a semi-fully loaded B-36 for takeoff? 3. Would all six turboprops and all four jet engines be needed for takeoff? (Sorry if I am wrong about engine types). 4. I know that this particular A/C has been there for at least 20 years (Boy Scout field trip in 1970 :-). What would need to be done to an average A/C on static display for 20 + years to make it airworthy? General Warbird Questions: 1. If a person had the money, how much would it take to buy a WWII fighter? (restored, airworthy). Bomber? For fighters, lets say, P-51, F8 Bearcat, P-40, Corsair. Bombers, B-25, B-17, A-20, B-26. 2. If you could buy a fighter, how would you learn to fly it? 3. What does it cost to maintain an ex military A/C for private use? 4. What is the availability of military jets? Is it legal to own an old military jet? 5. Any warbird owners out there that need a good passenger? :-) Oh, at the end of his letter, this guy asked for "any financial assistance" you can send. He also said that his group purchased five A/C from the AF at Chanute, and would like to fly them ALL out. Sounds like a snow job to me. I'll post a list of Chanute A/C if anybody is interested. The base is accessible by the public, and is not closed yet. -- ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Mike Sheumaker ***University of Illinois*** Network Design Office /// EMAIL: mikes@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu ***All standard disclaimers apply*** ////GO BEARS!! GO CUBS!! GO ILLINI!! COME ON SEVEN!! "Ace-deuce CRRRRAAAP DICE!"//////////////////////////////////////////////////////^Vegas Stickman Imitation^//
john@uunet.UU.NET (John A. Weeks III) (11/29/90)
From: newave!john@uunet.UU.NET (John A. Weeks III) > From: mikes@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Mike Sheumaker) Based on talking with people at airshows and my neighbors at the Planes of Fame (Eden Prairie, MN)... > 1. If a person had the money, how much would it take to buy a WWII fighter? > (restored, airworthy). Bomber? For fighters, lets say, P-51, F8 Bearcat, > P-40, Corsair. Bombers, B-25, B-17, A-20, B-26. Unrestored fighters can cost $1-Million+. Planes of Fame recently bought (and unfortunately crashed) a nice P-51 for $825,000. A barely airworthy P-38 recently sold for over $1.5 million. A B-26 would be quite a find!!! (I believe that the CAF has the only flying B-26), but A-26 Invaders are still found fairly reasonable ($250,000 or so for a former fire-bomber). About the only inexpensive warbirds are the L-planes and AT-6's. > 2. If you could buy a fighter, how would you learn to fly it? There are instructors available for learning to fly warbirds provided you can already fly. Given the historic value of a warbird, specialized training is a must. For example, a Mustang is usually fairly well behaved, but it is very tricky flying at low speeds. And it would be nice to be able to handle a B-25 with one engine out rather than bailing out and watching it crash. > 3. What does it cost to maintain an ex military A/C for private use? According to the people at Combat Jets in Huston, about $1500 per hour to opeate a jet...provided everything goes right. They ate a bird on their Hawker Hunter flying back from Oshkosh which caused damage to the engine. It proved difficult to repair because of scarce parts and the fact that they could not find the right tools (and the British would not loan out their only remaining set). For warbirds, the Planes Of Fame generally budgets $10,000 per plane to make an apperance at an airshow (non-local, at least) including all of the fuel and maintenance. You have to sell a lot of T-Shirts to make up for the expenses. An engine overhaul for a B-17 can run $50,000 per engine. > 4. What is the availability of military jets? Is it legal to own an old > military jet? The USAF tries very hard to make it impossible to get a permit to fly ex-USAF planes. They often cut the main structural supports between the wings before selling planes. Most military jets that are in private hands in the USA are imported or are built from spare parts. Combat Jets built an A-4 from parts. > 5. Any warbird owners out there that need a good passenger? :-) I'm sure that you will find a long line to stand in. Your best be is to become a writer for a Magazine or work at a local museum. The National Warplane museum gave B-17 rides to everyone that donated 500 hours or more. The other alternative is to pay $50 for a Stearman ride at the Planes of Fame. > I'll post a list of Chanute A/C if anybody is interested. The base is > accessible by the public, and is not closed yet. Are you sure??? I have tried to call and reach anyone at the base to get in and take photos. The phones are disconnected, and several magazines have printed stories about the base closing. If it is open, I will drive down at a moments notice. I like photographing B-36's and they have a collection of planes that flew with the Thunderbirds. -john- -- =============================================================================== John A. Weeks III (612) 942-6969 john@newave.mn.org NeWave Communications ...uunet!rosevax!bungia!wd0gol!newave!john ===============================================================================
wb9omc@ee.ecn.purdue.edu (Duane P Mantick) (11/30/90)
From: wb9omc@ee.ecn.purdue.edu (Duane P Mantick) mikes@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Mike Sheumaker) writes: >I read an interesting letter to the editor in a magazine called "Warbirds" the >other day. A gentleman was asking for help in persuading the proper authorities >(FAA, Air Force ?) to allow his group to fly several old planes out of Chanute >AFB for placement in a museum. (BTW, Chanute AFB has quitw a few planes on >static display, and is supposed to be closed down in the near future.) The >specific plane that he mentioned is a B-36. He states in the letter that it is >cheaper to get the B-36 airworthy and flown out than to dissassemble it for >ground transport. Oh.. the runways have been closed for several years. >This immediately raised several questions in my mind: >1. What is usually done to an aircraft on static display? Remove engines, >electronics, etc? Plate over access panels, air intakes? I think that this depends on what the status of the aircraft type was when any particular one was removed from service. The B36 at Chanute was a RB-36H-30 serial numbered 51-13730 which was fairly late on the production line. This means that, being one of the "newer" ones, It *should* have been in better condition than most. If it was retired along with most of the B36 force, it probably wasn't raided for spare parts, as many of them wouldn't be interchangeable with other types. Electronic gear might well have been removed, however. Indeed, a lot of access panels on that particular bird have been covered (I have seen it). From what I have seen of static birds, what gets done to them largely depends on why they were retired, where they are going, why they are going there, and who is taking care of them (if anybody) once they get there. An airplane that has been sittting out in the weather for twenty years does NOT sound like a good candidate for flying, especially one that has been in a great deal of midwest humidity, combined with freezing. Had it been at a dry, more temperate place like Davis-Monthan AFB, I'd be more inclined to trust it. >2. Since the runways have been closed for several years, what kind of >maintenance would need to be done to them in order to support a semi-fully >loaded B-36 for takeoff? I suspect one would want to look for sharp tire-puncturing objects. FOD (Foreign Object Damage) is normally not a serious consideration for piston engines like it is for turbojets. See comments below.... >3. Would all six turboprops and all four jet engines be needed for takeoff? >(Sorry if I am wrong about engine types). No, the B36 did NOT absolutely require the four turbojets to take off. Those so equipped (I think D models and up) were quite capable of getting off without them, although at a somewhat increased roll. Due to the junk that is probably blowing around on Chanutes runways, I'd think you'd be better off without them running to suck the stuff up. >4. I know that this particular A/C has been there for at least 20 years (Boy >Scout field trip in 1970 :-). What would need to be done to an average A/C on >static display for 20 + years to make it airworthy? Holy cow, we could write a book about this! Every system, and I mean down to nuts, bolts and rivets need to be checked and replaced if needed. To give you an idea of how long these birds have been out of service, the last B36 to fly went to the USAF museum in April 1959, over 30 years ago. I think you can figure out the rest. >General Warbird Questions: >1. If a person had the money, how much would it take to buy a WWII fighter? >(restored, airworthy). Bomber? For fighters, lets say, P-51, F8 Bearcat, >P-40, Corsair. Bombers, B-25, B-17, A-20, B-26. Bloody expensive, they are. I think a P51 in flyable status has sold for $500,000 and up. And they are about the most common warbird surviving! >2. If you could buy a fighter, how would you learn to fly it? Talk to the CAF (Confederate Air Force) - many former P51 jocks and qualified instructors are members. But don't even waste their time unless you've got some hours under your belt as a private pilot already. >3. What does it cost to maintain an ex military A/C for private use? If you have to ask, you probably can't afford it. The phrase "machine shop" comes to mind, for as you might guess, these parts aren't exactly cluttering up shelves. >4. What is the availability of military jets? Is it legal to own an old >military jet? Not much availablity although there are private individuals that have some. >5. Any warbird owners out there that need a good passenger? :-) :-) :-) >Oh, at the end of his letter, this guy asked for "any financial assistance" >you can send. He also said that his group purchased five A/C from the AF >at Chanute, and would like to fly them ALL out. Sounds like a snow job to >me. I'll post a list of Chanute A/C if anybody is interested. The base is >accessible by the public, and is not closed yet. I am anxiously waiting to hear how this goes.... Duane Mantick email wb9omc@ea.ecn.purdue.edu
rjg@sialis.com (Robert J. Granvin) (11/30/90)
From: rjg@sialis.com (Robert J. Granvin) >From: newave!john@uunet.UU.NET (John A. Weeks III) >> From: mikes@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Mike Sheumaker) >> 1. If a person had the money, how much would it take to buy a WWII fighter? >> (restored, airworthy). Bomber? For fighters, lets say, P-51, F8 Bearcat, >> P-40, Corsair. Bombers, B-25, B-17, A-20, B-26. > >Unrestored fighters can cost $1-Million+. Easily, depending on the type of aircraft. Wing reconstruction alone, for example, can easily exceed $100,000. Our B-25, as another example, has been in restoration for 12 years. Only one of the many people who volunteer to work on it, has logged over 700 hours of restoration work. Multiplying that by a reasonable hourly rate, and then adding in the dozens of others who have, and are, working on it, just those costs alone stack up. >> 3. What does it cost to maintain an ex military A/C for private use? The cost runs proportional to the amount of parts available, as well as the demand. P-51 parts are fairly plentiful, and there are a number of companies who service nothing but. But, since parts are in high demand, an engine crankshaft will still have a lot of zeroes following the leading digit. Even more plentiful aircraft have expensive parts. I'm finding that I can purchase newly made prop blades for a Harvard for about $3,500. Finding original ones, is almost seeming to be more difficult than locating P-51C wings. You have to plan to spend several hundred $$ per hour to fly, and expect to fly a minimum number of hours. You must also realize that all warbirds eat fuel at an extraordinary rate, not to mention oil (the common joke is that when a warbird stops leaking oil, it's empty.) It's also wise to plan for those unexpected events, like when the airport crew puts a metal road barricade in the middle of the taxiway where the pilot can't see it, but the prop can. :-) Things that are easy to overlook become a problem. Where DO you find new tires for these things, anyways? >> 5. Any warbird owners out there that need a good passenger? :-) > >I'm sure that you will find a long line to stand in. Your best be is to >become a writer for a Magazine or work at a local museum. The National >Warplane museum gave B-17 rides to everyone that donated 500 hours or more. >The other alternative is to pay $50 for a Stearman ride at the Planes of >Fame. This is very true. The best way to get a ride is to be someone that can help the organization that has the aircraft. The equally best way is to work for them. Most, if not all, organizations will "reward" their workers with rides (the thrill is indescribable... Even in a leisurely trainer.) You may also, if you are very lucky and can afford several hundred dollars, "purchase" a ride at an airshow. These tend to be pricy (they barely cover the cost of fuel), are not advertised (or sanctioned), and difficult to locate. There's always a possibility that these rides, of all types, will start getting more difficult to obtain in the future. As more warbirds go into the ground, and as they get older, the more insurance will cost. Eventually, the insurance will likely be too prohibitive to routinely fly non-crew. But I wouldn't worry about it yet. That'll take a while before it happens, if ever. Your best bet is still to join up and work on one of these beauties.