TSOMMERS@zodiac.rutgers.edu (12/03/90)
From: TSOMMERS@zodiac.rutgers.edu >From: crowl@cs.rochester.edu (Lawrence Crowl) >Many of the descriptions of warships posted to this group read like: > > 2 engines, 4 missle launchers, 1 cannon, 1 radar, 1 sonar, 300 men > >What are all those men doing? The ships seem grossly over-manned for their >capabilities. This imbalance appears to worsen as the ship size increases. > >I cannot see a need for more than 50 men on a ship, unless it carries >aircraft (including helicopters). The jobs I can imagine are: > > commander (whoever is in charge for the shift), helm, > weapons control (2), weapons loading (2), radar/sonar operators (2), > cook, and janitor While it is true that a merchant ship can get by with 30-50 men, all they have to do is sail from point to point, and they rarely stay at sea for more than a couple of weeks. Naval ships have much more to do, and can spend months at sea without seeing a port. Not only do they have to operate their weapons and sensors, they also have to be able to fix and maintain lots of equipment, to communicate 24 hrs a day (both with the shore and with other ships in company), to communicate internally, to treat the sick and wounded, to feed a large crew, to run the engines, and, a not inconsiderable matter, replace casualties. Not to mention the need for administrators, to keep personnel and pay records and to handle the routine business of the ship (all of which is handled by the home office of a merchant ship, or by the master or pursor). The minimum bridge watch consists of: Officer of the Deck, Junior OOD, Helm, Lee helm (who transmits orders to the engine room), Quartermaster of the Watch (who keeps the log and charts), Boatswain's Mate of the Watch, Messenger of the Watch, Phone Talker (for interior communication), for a total of 8. In CIC you'll have the Tactical Action Officer, a supervisor or two, EW operators, sonar operators, radar operators, dead-reckoning-trace operator, phone talkers and assorted others. There will be a couple of signalmen on the signal bridge, for visual communication. In radio there will be 4 or 5 men on watch (a supervisor, fleet broadcast operator, teletype operators, traffic handlers, radio operators, etc.). And so on throughout the ship. This for a destroyer type. Even with the large crew, no one is underworked, 12-14 hour days being the norm. An 8-hour day is almost like a day off. > ... >Yes, I know you may need fire fighting and damage control, but in battle >you can call on the other two shifts to perform these duties. Most of the >time, the ship will not be in battle. It's true that not much time is spent in battle, but you have to be ready to fight any time. You can't ask the enemy to wait while you steam back to base to pick up some more crewmen. Also, at General Quarters, there are no spare men to fight the odd fire. During normal steaming watches, not every space or piece of equipment is manned; at GQ they must be. For instance, in radio, instead of one guy handling all the transmitters and receivers, there will be one or two guys in each transmitter room and others manning the receivers; instead of one man watching several tty circuits, each will be manned separately, and so on. >The benefits of smaller crews (for the same capability) are substantial. > >- There are fewer men between the captain and the hardware. > - The command structure should react faster. > ... >Are current ships over-manned? If ships are not over-manned today, can we >reduce the manpower requirements for future warships through automation and >proper systems design? The FFG-7 class was designed with such considerations in mind. It has a crew of about 190, whereas the earlier Knox and Garcia classes require about 250.
zpope@apollo.HP.COM (William Pope) (12/05/90)
From: zpope@apollo.HP.COM (William Pope) In article <1990Dec3.051029.3208@cbnews.att.com>, TSOMMERS@zodiac.rutgers.edu writes: |> >From: crowl@cs.rochester.edu (Lawrence Crowl) |> > ... deleted |> |> While it is true that a merchant ship can get by with 30-50 men, all |> they have to do is sail from point to point, and they rarely stay at sea |> for more than a couple of weeks. FYE: I spent some time working on coastal tankers for a small line (Falcon). The ship I was on had a crew of 8. The largest ship in the line had a crew of 12. ++---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------++ Bill Z. Pope HP / Apollo ARPA: zpope@apollo.hp.com Somewhere in Massachusetts Phone: (508) 256-6600 "Pushing stuff through wires"
gwh%earthquake.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (George William Herbert) (12/06/90)
From: gwh%earthquake.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (George William Herbert) In article <1990Dec3.051029.3208@cbnews.att.com> TSOMMERS@zodiac.rutgers.edu writes: >From: TSOMMERS@zodiac.rutgers.edu >>Many of the descriptions of warships posted to this group read like: >> >> 2 engines, 4 missle launchers, 1 cannon, 1 radar, 1 sonar, 300 men >>What are all those men doing? The ships seem grossly over-manned for their >>capabilities. This imbalance appears to worsen as the ship size increases. > >While it is true that a merchant ship can get by with 30-50 men, all >they have to do is sail from point to point, and they rarely stay at sea >for more than a couple of weeks. Naval ships have much more to do, and >can spend months at sea without seeing a port. Not only do they have to Crew requirements are driven more by maintenance than anything else. If a merchant ship were at sea for as long as naval ships tend to be (months at times...) it's crew would go from 30 to 100 as the maintenance personell otherwise left on shore were shifted aboard. Then, triple the amount of machinery and electronics (or more...) and you begin to get the idea. The other requirement is GQ manning... in damage control, everyone is useful. == George William Herbert == **There are only two truly infinite things,** == JOAT for Hire: Anything, == * the universe and stupidity. And I am * =======Anywhere, My Price======= * unsure about the universe. -A.Einstein * == gwh@ocf.berkeley.edu == ********************************************* == ucbvax!ocf!gwh == The OCF Gang: Making Tomorrow's Mistakes Today
jwm@sun4.jhuapl.edu (James W. Meritt) (12/09/90)
From: jwm@sun4.jhuapl.edu (James W. Meritt) They may be overmanned to be tied up pierside and everyone go home at night. But that isn't what they do. Some things to consider: In combat, wwhen someone gets taken out of action you have to replace him. There is not a large standing ready supply of people mid-ocean. Somebody has to FIX all these things. A ship has more moving parts than a building. I've seen the manning of an LHA go up by 20% or so just from the requirements to do PMS. Ships go 24 hours a day. You need three times as many people as positions to do this for an extended period. I've spent a lot of time at sea. I don't recall a lot of people doing nothing. I remember a lot of people orn out from doing too much too long. (I was one of them) Jim Meritt LCDR (USNR) went to reserves after 10 years active. Surface line - mighty fine.
steve@uunet.UU.NET (Steve Nuchia) (12/12/90)
From: nuchat!steve@uunet.UU.NET (Steve Nuchia) The original question compared military manning levels with civilian cargo types. One point that hasn't been raised in response is that many, if not most, civilian shipping operates badly undermanned. Having been indoctrinated to the navy way of driving ships, the idea of tooling around the ocean with a teenager all alone at the wheel and everybody else asleep scares me silly. A fair number of accidents occur due to inadequate bridge watches, bad navigation, that sort of thing. There have even been some accidents in which the bridge watch of one of the vessels consisted of an autopilot. Economic pressures lead the ship's owners to take the gamble -- if the ship catches fire, or runs aground, or is involved in a collision, chances are they will be able to get help. If it suffers an engineering casualty they will be able to get a tow, or maybe fly a part and an expert out by helicopter. Or continue the "mission" with one engine, or without radar, or whatever. Such casualties aren't low-probablity contingencies for Naval vessels -- they are expected concommitants of doing their job. And as others have said, you can't very well call up the task force commander and say "Somebody shot at me! Please send over some firemen and a tow line!" One thing that those of you who have never been aboard a commissioned naval vessel may not appreciate is just how much junk there is inside the hull. From the outside you see some gun mounts, a few missile launchers, the bridge, and maybe a helo deck. Museum pieces fail to convey the real picture usually because so much has been removed or sealed off. The real picture is like one of those beef cutting charts -- every part of the three-dimensional interior is dedicated to some function, and each of those visible features on the exterior has a much larger volume dedicated to supporting it on the inside. Under the gun mount you have the magazine, amunition elevators, and the mechanisms that train and elevate the gun. Forward of the helo deck is a hanger, where the helo is serviced between missions. Even civilian helos require service every so many hours of flight. At sea that happens right there on the ship. Others have done a good job of explaining all the things you need people for, and I'll resist going on about it at more length. If anyone still has doubts though, do a little research. Find a good picture book cutaway of a warship and start counting equipment. Better yet, start counting up how many people it takes to keep your building or campus running -- don't forget the technicians who can come by on demand to fix computers, elevators, air conditoners ...