jbasara@uunet.UU.NET (jim basara) (12/09/90)
From: ssdc!jbasara@uunet.UU.NET (jim basara) Could someone please give me some details on how an advancing army remains supplied, especially with fuel. For instance, if we were to invade Kuwait, thousands of vehicles, some which require enormous amounts of fuel would be on the move. How is the supplying of all these vehicles with fuel orchestrated? Thanks, jim basara uunet!ssdc!jbasara
henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) (12/11/90)
From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) >From: ssdc!jbasara@uunet.UU.NET (jim basara) >Could someone please give me some details on how an advancing army remains >supplied, especially with fuel. For instance, if we were to invade Kuwait, >thousands of vehicles, some which require enormous amounts of fuel would >be on the move. How is the supplying of all these vehicles with fuel >orchestrated? By lots more vehicles carrying supplies, basically. High-level commanders tend to worry more about logistics than about tactics; an army with plenty of supplies will almost always beat one that is running out of everything, tactics or no tactics. If you want an example, German operations in the USSR in autumn 1941 bogged down almost totally when the rains started. Not because the tanks couldn't move; they had no problem. Not because the halftracks carrying troops and support units couldn't move, although they were having trouble. The total halt to effective offensive operations was because the trucks and wagons carrying supplies up to the front were immobilized almost completely, until it got cold enough for mud to freeze. The advent of heavy cargo aircraft and helicopters has reduced the problem a little, but has not removed it. The sheer *tonnage* required is still so huge that ground transport has to move much of it. -- "The average pointer, statistically, |Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology points somewhere in X." -Hugh Redelmeier| henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
carlson@gateway (Bruce Carlson) (12/11/90)
From: carlson@gateway (Bruce Carlson) In article <1990Dec8.222647.28332@cbnews.att.com> ssdc!jbasara@uunet.UU.NET (jim basara) writes: > > >From: ssdc!jbasara@uunet.UU.NET (jim basara) > >Could someone please give me some details on how an advancing army remains >supplied, especially with fuel. For instance, if we were to invade Kuwait, >thousands of vehicles, some which require enormous amounts of fuel would >be on the move. How is the supplying of all these vehicles with fuel >orchestrated? > >Thanks, > >jim basara >uunet!ssdc!jbasara I don't know anything about the delivery systems at higher echelons (from seaborne tankers or pipelines), but I have seen what is used for delivery to Army tactical units. At the Support Command Level (Usually Corps Support Command, maybe a more generic support command) if they do not have in-ground fuel tanks (although I assume we may have a few provided by the Saudis) they will move and dispense fuel from tankers that are similar to those used to deliver fuel to commercial gas stations. The main limitation of these tankers is that they are designed for built up roads (paved, or good quality gravel) and cannot follow the troops into many tactical areas. The large tankers are moved as far forward as possible and then stationed in a support area to provide fuel for specific units or within a particular geographic area. Every echelon has a support area (Corps, Division, Brigade/Battalion) and most support systems (maintenance, supply, etc.) are hierarchical. To get fuel out to the units they will either use smaller tankers (similar to the trucks used to deliver home fuel oil) or they will mount tank-and-pump units on the back of tactical 2 1/2 ton or 5 ton vehicles. The tactical vehicles are all-wheel-drive and can carry two 500 gallon fuel pods in the truck and pull a trailer that carries another 500 gallon pod. They can travel over rough country and poor roads, but may have to reduce the load under poor road conditions (too much weight and too easy to get stuck and/or break the truck). Most vehicles will be refueled directly from the tanker or fuel pod. 5 gallon gas cans will be used for small generators (up to about 10 kw) and to hold spare fuel on tactical vehicles. Large generators (60 kw range) usually are truck mounted and pull a trailer with fuel pod behind the truck. The smaller trailer-mounted generators have built-in fuel tanks and brackets to carry about 6 5-gallon cans. There are other more exotic fuel delivery systems, such as fuel bladders that can be carried by helicopter. I know we have them, but I've never seen them used in peacetime exercises. Bruce Carlson carlson@gateway.mitre.org
major@uunet.UU.NET (Mike Schmitt) (12/12/90)
From: bcstec!shuksan!major@uunet.UU.NET (Mike Schmitt) > From: ssdc!jbasara@uunet.UU.NET (jim basara) > > Could someone please give me some details on how an advancing army remains > supplied, especially with fuel. For instance, if we were to invade Kuwait, > thousands of vehicles, some which require enormous amounts of fuel would > be on the move. How is the supplying of all these vehicles with fuel > orchestrated? Any logisticians out there? This simple question really requires a very complex answer - to try to define the Army's tactical logistical system. But, here's a 'brief' attempt, and I'll restrict it to fuel. The Army calls fuel "Class III POL (Petroleum, Oil, Lubricatants)". The concept is "Fuel Forward." Basically, if Tanks and APCs are on a defensive position - fuel trucks come to each position and refuel. On the attack - all vehicles are 'topped off' in the assembly area before they launch their attack. In an assembly area - a POL Point is established with fuel trucks and Tanks/APCs go to the fuel point. Every company-size unit has at least one fuel tanker in its headquarters, A battalion will have 5 ton tankers in its Headquarters Company, a division has a fleet of 5,000 gallon tankers in its Supply and Transport Battalion, of DISCOM and there is a Division POL Officer who plans for all the Class III forward throughput and establishes a number of Division Class III POL Points along MSRs (Main Supply Routes). Battalions establish a "Battalion Trains" in the rear of the battalion AO where fuel trucks set up. Company tankers come back to resupply - then move forward to resupply Tanks/APCs on position. Brigades establish a "Brigade Trains" in the rear of the brigade AO were DISCOM sends a 5,000 gallong tanker to set up. Battalion tankers come back to Brigade Trains to refuel - then move back to their Battalion Trains POL Point. On the move - forward 'Hot Refuel Points' will be established along the convoy route. March units simply pull off to the side of the road - "line up at the gas pump" - top off and move out. DISCOM will establish a main division POL Point in the Division Support Area (DSA) - empty 5,000 gal tankers return while full 5,000 gal tanker move forward. At the DSA, the Corps Support Command (COSCOM) sets up a Corps Forward CLASS III point - in Europe it was a bunch of railroad tank cars at the nearest railhead. Class III can also be brought in with fuel bladders ('blivits') brought in by Corps-level CH-47 Chinook Helicoptors. Normally, Aviation Fuel is brought in this way to the FAARP (Forward Area Aviation Refuel Point). Its a very complex operation. But with over 7 years in Mech Infantry units - I've never run out of gas! mike schmitt "We may only support the force, but without us - the force don't go!" - sign over Class III POL Point, 3 Inf Div [addendum: some have emailed responses to me - which I have received. However, I've tried to respond to all - but my mail is screwed up and everything keeps bouncing back. I'm working on it now - but I think I need a bigger hammer.]
wb8foz@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (David Lesher) (12/13/90)
From: David Lesher <wb8foz@mthvax.cs.miami.edu>
Was not one of the keys to the post-Normandy push east the 'Red Ball
Express?' As I recall {most likely incorrectly} this was an all-black
transport unit that ran 24 hours a day delivering supplies from the
beachheads.
Even so, ISTM that Ike had supplies for Patton *or* Montgomery,
but not both.
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.....wb8foz@mthvax.cs.miami.edu
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is busy, hung or dead....................................33257-0335cash@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu (Peter Cash) (12/13/90)
From: convex!cash@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu (Peter Cash)
A few years ago, I read an article that argued that the US Army was
sacrificing combat readiness by ordering expensive, high-tech weapons
systems at the expense of basic items like ammo stockpiles, parts, and
other non-glamorous supplies that make war possible. One of the items that
was alleged to be in short supply were fuel pumps that are used to gas up
tanks from fuel trucks. Does anyone know if this shortage still exists
(assuming it was real to begin with)?
--
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| Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist. |
Peter Cash | (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein) |cash@convex.com
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