chcr04@vaxa.strath.ac.uk (12/07/90)
From: chcr04@vaxa.strath.ac.uk Since 1969 it is believed that submarines operating in the Irish Sea and out of the Scottish coast have been causing fish-trawlers to sink. On november 22nd, the trawler Antares caught a sub in its nets, and was pulled under. The four crewmen paid ''the catch'' with their lives. This time, the Navy could not deny it. On 5-12-90 the Navy announced that they are going to tell the fishermen about the position of the subs, so they can prevent catching one. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? I find it very absurd and unreal; The fishermen catch a 'big fish' and they get pulled under. I have a few questions. Who has the answers? * The fishermen say the subs are using the trawlers as mock-targets. Could this be true? Why would they do that? How close would they get? * Is there anyone who knows anything about accidents between subs and trawlers, anywhere in the world? * Would this also happen with American subs? * Who knows details about previous accidents in Britain? Or where could I find them? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Oh, by the way: Greenpeace published a scientific report yesterday, which proved that almost half of the British nucleair submarinefleet has a leaking reactor. ,,They are moving chernobyls'', a Greenpeace-spokeswoman said.
tighe@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu (Mike Tighe) (12/09/90)
From: convex!tighe@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu (Mike Tighe) In article <1990Dec7.012627.2607@cbnews.att.com> chcr04@vaxa.strath.ac.uk writes: >I find it very absurd and unreal; The fishermen catch a 'big fish' and they >get pulled under. I have a few questions. Who has the answers? >* The fishermen say the subs are using the trawlers as mock-targets. >Could this be true? Why would they do that? How close would they get? I doubt it. I think the problem is with the fishermen. They drag their nets for miles and at deep depths, and they catch submarines that are not deep or are attempting to surface. The most dangerous time for a sub is when it is attempting to surface. It just doesn't know what is up there. >* Is there anyone who knows anything about accidents between subs and >trawlers, anywhere in the world? Sure. The last case I know of involved some fisherman who were killed when their boat capsized when it was caught by a sub during the filming of "The Hunt for Red October", off the shores of the West coast of the US. I think this was around January of 1990. There are others, but I do not recall them with dates/details. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Mike Tighe, Internet: tighe@convex.com Voice: (214) 497-4206 Fax: (214) 497-4550 -----------------------------------------------------------
jln@elaine8.stanford.edu (Jared Nedzel) (12/09/90)
From: jln@elaine8.stanford.edu (Jared Nedzel) In article <1990Dec7.012627.2607@cbnews.att.com> chcr04@vaxa.strath.ac.uk writes: [deleted] >Oh, by the way: Greenpeace published a scientific report yesterday, which >proved that almost half of the British nucleair submarinefleet has a leaking ^^^^^^ >reactor. ,,They are moving chernobyls'', a Greenpeace-spokeswoman said. Greenpeace has an agenda; I seriously doubt anything they say will be objective. As to their report "proving" anything, well I suggest you consider who published the report and what their motives might be. To the moderator: I realize I'm straying into politics here. If I'm out of line, I assume you'll edit/reject this submission. [mod.note: A correct assumption. I left this in to clarify a point of policy here; that is, I have no trouble with people politely pointing out the bias of a source. The key word is "politely." - Bill ] As for problems with the British ballistic missile subs, that's old news. You can even read it in Jane's Fighting Ships. Finally, concerning the safety of naval reactors. The main problem that worries people about a reactor is loss of coolant. But with a naval reactor, there's plenty of coolant around -- the sea. A friend of mine (a nuke officer on a US nuclear-powered cruiser) always said he never worried about that. If things got really bad, he'd just flood the reactor with sea water. It is my impression that US and NATO naval nuclear safety has been excellent. Considering their political views, I have extreme doubts about the validity of the Greenpeace claims. -- Jared L. Nedzel --------------------------------------------------------------------- e-mail: nedzel@cive.stanford.edu jln@portia.stanford.edu
warack@dip.eecs.umich.edu (Christopher Warack) (12/11/90)
From: warack@dip.eecs.umich.edu (Christopher Warack) In article <1990Dec8.223536.29482@cbnews.att.com> convex!tighe@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu (Mike Tighe) writes: > >In article <1990Dec7.012627.2607@cbnews.att.com> chcr04@vaxa.strath.ac.uk writes: >>* Is there anyone who knows anything about accidents between subs and >>trawlers, anywhere in the world? > >Sure. The last case I know of involved some fisherman who were killed when >their boat capsized when it was caught by a sub during the filming of "The >Hunt for Red October", off the shores of the West coast of the US. I think >this was around January of 1990. There are others, but I do not recall them >with dates/details. The "Red October" accident was in the straits between Long Beach and Catalina Island. It didn't involve fishing nets, though. The ship was towing a barge, and the sub snagged the towing cable (which was under water). This is a danger even to surface ships since you can't see the cable. Another hazard of the seas... Chris -- Christopher A. Warack warack@eecs.umich.edu Graduate Dept, EECS (313) 665-4789 University of Michigan
darragh@maths.tcd.ie (Darragh J. Delany) (12/11/90)
From: darragh@maths.tcd.ie (Darragh J. Delany) In article <1990Dec7.012627.2607@cbnews.att.com> chcr04@vaxa.strath.ac.uk writes: >* The fishermen say the subs are using the trawlers as mock-targets. >Could this be true? Why would they do that? How close would they get? What the sub cmdrs do is position their subs under trawlers in coastal waters so that surveilance will only identify the trawler and not the sub under it. A trainee officer was being taught this technique when his sub 'caught' the Antares. >* Is there anyone who knows anything about accidents between subs and >trawlers, anywhere in the world? Numerous Irish trawlers have complained of having to cut their nets when they have been dragged backwards in the Irish sea. Some have caught pieces of sub equipment in their nets eg dragged sonar bouy 'caught' last year. >* Would this also happen with American subs? Oh yes, most of the equipment found in nets is US, the RN seem a bit more responsible in it's practices. Darragh.
jtchew@csa1.lbl.gov (JOSEPH T CHEW) (12/11/90)
From: jtchew@csa1.lbl.gov (JOSEPH T CHEW) In article <1990Dec7.012627.2607@cbnews.att.com>, chcr04@vaxa.strath.ac.uk writes... >Is there anyone who knows anything about accidents between subs and >trawlers, anywhere in the world? Would this also happen with American subs? It happened a couple of years ago off California. The culprit was one of the SSNs used in filming the movie "The Hunt for Red October," though the accident did not occur during actual filming. If memory serves, there was a survivor, who reported the trawler being suddenly dragged backwards at considerable speed, a process that did not allow it to maintain structural integrity very long. Damage to the sub, if any, was not reported in the newspapers. I use "trawler" loosely to mean any small commercial fishing vessel with nets. There may be specific technical reasons why some kinds are more vulnerable. Perhaps someone will respond on the specific procedures and technologies (if any) that are available to reduce this kind of risk. --Joe "Just another personal opinion from the People's Republic of Berkeley"
swilliam@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil (Williams) (12/12/90)
From: swilliam@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil (Williams) >On november 22nd, the trawler Antares caught a sub in its nets, and >was pulled under. The four crewmen paid ''the catch'' with their lives. >I find it very absurd and unreal; The fishermen catch a 'big fish' and they >get pulled under. >* Would this also happen with American subs? I remember reading a book, "Nautilus 90 North," about USS Nautilus and its attempts to go from Pacific Ocean to Atlantic Ocean via North Pole, submerged. In this book, Commander Bill Anderson mentioned Nautilus running into a fish net and towing the trawler for some distance before Nautilus' crew realized what was happening.
Patrick.Hayes@cediag.bull.fr (12/12/90)
From: Patrick.Hayes@cediag.bull.fr >Since 1969 it is believed that submarines operating in the Irish Sea >and out of the Scottish coast have been causing fish-trawlers to sink. The major problem in this region (The Irish Sea -- between Ireland and The English coast) is that from a sub driver's perspective it is VERY shallow, the area is litterally crawling with trawlers fom a number of nations, and the major british sub bases are stuck right in the middle of the whole mess. (I'm working from memory here please forgive any inaccuracies) There have been a number of sudden disparitions of ships in the region, and not just little tubs with 2-4 men on them. I remember stories a year or two ago on the sudden disparition of a french trawler with 25 men on board which went under on a clear day with amost no waves, other trawlers which found themselves being stopped and pulled BACKWARDS who only escaped by cutting all lines, etc, which can only be explained by the presence of subs in the area. The sub drivers have little they can do to avoid this situation. Most trawlers hang out nets a few miles long which are close to dragging the seafloor. They can't dive under the nets, and they can't hear the nets on sonar unless they go active, so thay cannot avoid them. The new solution(s) proposed by the Royal Navy were: 1) equip the trawler's nets with noisemakers so that the subs can avoid them. (I wonder what they are proposing for ships from other nations...) 2) giving the captains financial aid to buy "break off" nets which snap off in the case they net someone a bit too big (actually these nets have existed for a while, but as they are more expensive than the normal nets not everyone used them. The financial aid is new) 3) let the trawlers know that subs "might" be passing through these X sectors. The advantage being that the other sectors are "safe" (up to now they were loath to do so, to keep Ivan in the dark on sub movements as much as possible -- The decline in East-West tensions seems to be the big difference here) >On november 22nd, the trawler Antares caught a sub in its nets, and >was pulled under. The four crewmen paid ''the catch'' with their lives. >This time, the Navy could not deny it. Did not deny it. There are other cases in which it could not be logically denied, but they still chose to do so in the National Interest (give interpretation on right/wrong your personal bias). >* The fishermen say the subs are using the trawlers as mock-targets. >Could this be true? Why would they do that? How close would they get? Let's give the sub drivers the credit of common sense here will we? This region is just too dangerous for them to be playing games like this with trawlers. They have gotten a lot of bad press on this already. I don't think they are looking for more. >* Would this also happen with American subs? American subs, French subs, in short ANY subs in the area -- even Russian subs if we'd let them play in the Irish Sea/smart enough to go anyway. >* Who knows details about previous accidents in Britain? >Or where could I find them? Try your nearest public library, and look at the old newspapers. Incidents are fairly common. >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >Oh, by the way: Greenpeace published a scientific report yesterday, which >proved that almost half of the British nucleair submarinefleet has a leaking >reactor. ,,They are moving chernobyls'', a Greenpeace-spokeswoman said. I'd be carefull with that "proved" word if I were you, especially coming from biased sources. Should you wish to inform us, post the data and let us come to our own conclusions. Pat +-------------------------------+-----------------------------------------+ | Patrick Hayes | EMail : Patrick.Hayes@cediag.bull.fr | | BULL CEDIAG | or hayes@bull.fr | | 68, Route de Versailles | or ...!mcvax!inria!bullfr!hayes | | F-78430 Louveciennes FRANCE | Tel : (33 1) 39 02 49 55 | +-------------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
budden@trout.nosc.mil (Rex A. Buddenberg) (12/13/90)
From: budden@trout.nosc.mil (Rex A. Buddenberg) The movie boat (Hunt for Red October) was the USS Houston impersonating the USS Dallas. Navy routinely wishes not to disclose damage details as it interprets that as providing readiness intel to the enemy. The policy occasionally gets carried to unreasonable extremes. Or at least USCG marine investigators often think so. To trawlers. First, lets not confuse them with trollers, boats that fish with hooks, generally for salmon and tuna. Trawlers generally come in a couple flavors: mid-water trawlers targeting species like hake (aka whiting). Midwater draggers can move at anywhere from 4 to ten knots. Their nets do not touch the bottom; the trawlmaster 'flies' the net at a controlled depth (either predetermined or coached by watching fishfinder gear). Bottom trawlers are precisely that -- they drag the trawl over the bottom and are rather omnivorous about what they bring up. Because of the difficulty in targeting a species, and the regulations we enforce on the foreigners in the US FCZ, bottom trawling is pretty much restricted to US flag boats in our waters. Bottom trawlers, as you might imagine, tend to lose their nets with greater frequency than midwater trawlers. They move slower whith nets out too: 1-4 knots. In both cases, trawlers tend to work on soundings -- rarely in water deeper than 100 fathoms. The northern half of the Bering Sea is shallow enough; so is a great deal of the FCZ (sorry: fisheries conservation zone -- 3-200 NM from the beach) on the Atlantic. The Pacific coast drops off fairly quickly so it's unusual for trawlers to work out of sight of land there. As for Europe, the North Sea is fairly shallow -- trawlers work throughout and oil rigs are routinely founded on the bottom. So is a goodly chunk of the Barents Sea -- approaches to the Northern Fleet's ports. Once you figure out where both trawlers and submarines operate in the same water column, it's pretty obvious where the accidents are likely to occur. The USS Houston accident was a bit of a fluke as SSNs (and SSBNs) generally head straight out to deeper water and submerge headed for even deeper water -- and away from trawler/towboat territory. BTW, submarine parts brought up on nets tend to be fairly benign. Things get exciting when it's unexploded ordnance like mines and torpedoes snagged by some poor bottom dragger. Sea story (you may key past if you want here....). Several years ago, we boarded a bottom trawler off the Oregon Coast. After checking all his life jackets and thumping all the fire extinguishers, I asked the skipper how he liked his Loran set -- he had what was then a fairly fancy rig with an X-Y plotter that he used to record trawl lines. Guy lit up and exclaimed that he'd paid for his new set the first day out. Seems he'd caught his net on something on the bottom (a 'pinnacle' is the canonical culprit) and lost it. Thumpy day and he couldn't get it then; so he marked the spot on his Loran/plotter and went home. A good trawl net costs over $10k, so it's definitely worth trying to get it back. Two weeks later, this guy drives back to his X-marks-the-spot and (so he claims) pulled the net up on the first grapnel cast. Rex Buddenberg
v059l49z@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Paul C Stacy) (12/13/90)
From: v059l49z@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Paul C Stacy) In article <1990Dec12.032349.11731@cbnews.att.com>, swilliam@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil (Williams) writes... >From: swilliam@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil (Williams) >>On november 22nd, the trawler Antares caught a sub in its nets, and >>was pulled under. The four crewmen paid ''the catch'' with their lives. > >>I find it very absurd and unreal; The fishermen catch a 'big fish' and they >>get pulled under. > >>* Would this also happen with American subs? I was reading in a magazine I got a few months ago about one of our subs in WWII getting caught in a Japanese net. They had been sitting on the bottom (for whatever reason) when a Japanese fishing boat passed over them and hooked them. The fishing boat started dragging them backwards slowly for a time. The captain of the sub was trying to decide if the fishermen knew what they had caught. They finally decided to give the sub full power and managed to escape (I believe they broke through the net). Paul "Joe Friday" Stacy
shafer@skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) (12/14/90)
From: shafer@skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer)
Someone mentioned a sub snagging a boat here in Southern California
and pulling it under, killing some of the crew, but the account was a
little confused.
There were two incidents (same sub, I think--one involved in the
filming of "The Hunt for Red October"). In the first of these, the
sub snagged the tow line between the boat and a barge. The boat was
pulled down, stern first, and one crewmember, sleeping belowdecks, was
lost. The other two escaped. This happened at night and it was quite
a long tow line. As I recall, the sub had sighted either the boat or
the barge or both, but didn't realize that there was a line between them.
Shortly thereafter the sub snagged the net of a fishing boat and the
fishermen cut the net loose at the winch with an ax, which is standard
equipment just for such incidents.
At the time the LA Times mentioned that these were fairly common
incidents, happening a few times a year. Most aren't fatal,
fortunately.
--
Mary Shafer shafer@skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov ames!skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov!shafer
NASA Ames Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA
Of course I don't speak for NASA
"A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all"--Unknown US fighter pilot