packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer) (11/17/90)
From: packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer) Tanks are much in the news recently. They're in news photos of the military buildup in Saudi Arabia, and a NY Times story in Thursday's (Nov 15) edition about the new arms treaty was headlined "Soviets Shift Many Tanks to Siberia." When was the last time a tank, anywhere in the world, fired its gun for real, i.e. =not= in manuevers or for testing? I'm interested in hearing from anyone who has read a newspaper report, history book, or other document that reports specifically this usage of a tank in real combat, police actions, or whatever. Better yet, of course, would be somebody who witnessed a tank's gun being fired in these situations, or for that matter, fired it himself.
carlos@stretch.cs.mun.ca (Carlos Borges) (11/20/90)
From: carlos@stretch.cs.mun.ca (Carlos Borges) packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer) writes: >When was the last time a tank, anywhere in the world, fired >its gun for real, i.e. =not= in manuevers or for testing? I'm sure the Iraqi tanks that stormed Kuwait fired their guns _for real_. -- Carlos (Miguel) Borges | "My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: carlos@stretch.cs.mun.ca | Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!" --
smpod@venus.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) (11/20/90)
From: smpod@venus.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) In article <1990Nov17.020432.234@cbnews.att.com>, packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer) writes... >When was the last time a tank, anywhere in the world, fired >its gun for real, i.e. =not= in manuevers or for testing? Iran/Iraq war Afghan war Chad action?
arthur@Eng.Sun.COM (Arthur Leung) (11/20/90)
From: arthur@Eng.Sun.COM (Arthur Leung) >When was the last time a tank, anywhere in the world, fired >its gun for real, i.e. =not= in manuevers or for testing? in lots of places in the not so distant past. the iran/iraq war comes to mind, though i don't know of any sources of information. israel used them in beirut. lots of tv footage of tanks firing MG and cannon at buildings. lots of books concerning that action, but most are political histories. england used the scorpion/scimitar in the falklands. while not tanks, i believe that the scorpion does mount a light cannon. Max Hastings wrote a book (i think "Battle for the Falklands", but i may be mistaken - it's at home) with some of the combat history. -- arthur
military@cbnews.att.com (William B. Thacker) (11/22/90)
From: sun!portal!cup.portal.com!Eric_S_Klien
Kuwait used tanks against Iraq in the recent Iraq/Kuwait war. Libya used
tanks against Chad in the Libya/Chad war. Russia used tanks against
Afghanistan in the Russian/Afghanistan war.
Eric Klienjpistrit@oracle.uucp (Joe Pistritto) (11/22/90)
From: jpistrit@oracle.uucp (Joe Pistritto) Tanks being used in combat: 1980-1988 Iran - Iraq - tanks used mainly as flat trajectory weapons against infantry. 1982 (?) Israelis in Lebanon - on film even, Israeli M-60s in action against Palestinian & Druze positions. 1989 Jaffna, Sri Lanka - Indian army tanks (mostly T-54s) in us Tamil forces. (Once again, used mainly as artillery). 1983 Amritsar, India - Indian army fired multiple shots from a T-54 into the 'Golden Temple' in Amritsar. Fairly ineffectively. The last real tank-on-tank massed combat occured during the Yom Kippur war of 1973, although both sides in Iran/Iraq used their tanks to support infantry assaults. I've been next to a tank when it fired its cannon (105mm from an M1). Its pretty impressive. The Russians used to use the strategy of carrying infantry riding on their tanks (often with anti-tank weapons), those guys probably can't hear any more... I've never really seriously considered being in the TARGET area a tank was shooting at... Joseph C. Pistritto: jpistrit@oracle.com
stevem@katmandu.Solbourne.COM (Stephen Matson) (11/22/90)
From: stevem@katmandu.Solbourne.COM (Stephen Matson) In article <1990Nov20.022520.27918@cbnews.att.com> smpod@venus.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) writes: >Iran/Iraq war >Afghan war >Chad action? I would add; Lebenon Romania (I'm pretty sure) Kuwait Falklands (scorpions/light tanks) -- E-mail == stevem@Solbourne.COM "FRODO LIVES" "COLORADO!!" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL
wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) (11/27/90)
From: Will Martin <wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL> "When did a tank last fire its gun 'for real'?" The facetious answer would probably be "yesterday", or "a minute ago", or, if you want to play games with the Interational Date Line, Coordinated Universal Time, and the definition of "date", "tomorrow". The problem with answering a question like this is that the world is so big, and there are so many armed forces in it, and there is so much conflict, that there probably is *some* fighting going on *somewhere* at any time. Armor may possibly be used in any of these instances. For example, we have little idea what is going on in Myanmar (formerly Burma); there was a lot of repression of popular unrest there by the government, and armor was used in the past, so it probably is being used there now. There are all sorts of warring factions -- governments, bandits, warlords, etc., in the Golden Triangle, and I'm sure a tank or two comes into play now and then there. As I recall, even though the Russians pulled out, the Afghan rebels are still fighting the Afghan government, and tanks were used there all along. In various parts of central and southern Africa, various factions, movements, and governments are fighting on a more or less continuous basis, and armor is used there from time to time. Central American fighting continues, with tanks involved at times. And so forth... The only way this sort of question can be asked in a more meaningful way is to hedge it all about with legalistic and arbitrary restrictions and definitions, speaking only of "the armed forces of a legitimate government," or "during a declared state of war," etc. If you get precise enough with those terms, and specific enough with the criteria, you can probably legitimately come up with "World War II" as a defensible answer. Of course, that's just a meaningless mind exercise and of no real value; you can always come up with any desired answer if you can manipulate the question to suit you. As a general rule, I think you can assume that just about any weapon, or at least "category of weapon", that exists, is being used now. The only exception is "nuclear", and that's just because their distribution is limited, they are expensive, and their use is fairly easy to detect. Regards, Will
major@uunet.UU.NET (Mike Schmitt) (11/29/90)
From: bcstec!shuksan!major@uunet.UU.NET (Mike Schmitt) In article <1990Nov20.022355.27811@cbnews.att.com>, carlos@stretch.cs.mun.ca (Carlos Borges) writes: > From: carlos@stretch.cs.mun.ca (Carlos Borges) > packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer) writes: > >When was the last time a tank, anywhere in the world, fired > >its gun for real, i.e. =not= in manuevers or for testing? > > I'm sure the Iraqi tanks that stormed Kuwait fired their guns _for real_. I'd guess that at least the 82d Abn's M551 Sheridans were used in Panama and fired their guns (as far as the last U.S. engagement). When/where was the last tank vs tank battle? Yom Kippur War? mike schmitt
David Lesher <wb8foz@mthvax.cs.miami.edu> (11/29/90)
From: David Lesher <wb8foz@mthvax.cs.miami.edu> Not the LAST time, but was not the Egyptian-Israeli battle in the desert supposed to have been larger than any during WWII? [mod.note; In an effort to put a cap on a thread that has become far too trivial, let me suggest that the battle of Kursk was larger than any during the Arab-Israeli wars. If I'm wrong, correct me. - Bill ] -- A host is a host from coast to coast.....wb8foz@mthvax.cs.miami.edu & no one will talk to a host that's close............(305) 255-RTFM Unless the host (that isn't close)......................pob 570-335 is busy, hung or dead....................................33257-0335
packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer) (11/29/90)
From: packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer) In article <1990Nov27.045624.4585@cbnews.att.com>, wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) writes... >From: Will Martin <wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL> >"When did a tank last fire its gun 'for real'?" > >The facetious answer would probably be "yesterday", or "a minute ago", I was the one who originally posted the query referred to above, and I thought I was quite clear that I wanted =documented= occurrences of tank usage that anyone had seen or read. It appears from followups here, e-mail, and my further e-mail queries to the followups, that the most recent film of tanks firing their cannons (now I know what they're called) in actual combat is from Israelis in Lebanon, 1982. For other conflicts, two books were suggested, "Vietnam," by Stanley Karnow, and "Battle for the Falklands," by Max Hastings. There were a couple of interesting anecdotes from someone who knew tank personnel, one from WW II, the other from an unspecified time in Israel. One person mentioned the conflict in Sri Lanka of 1989 as a probability, and I decided to use this as a test case for press reports because it was recent and would be easy to follow in the NY Times Index (because not tied up in larger conflict, e.g. Mideast) When I began reading the Times articles about the military action, I realized that I wouldn't learn anything because journalists were denied access to the area and therefore were just passing along government reports to the effect that "tanks and artillery were used," etc. No further details. I guess this is probably true generally for recent conflicts.
tek@CS.UCLA.EDU (Ted Kim (Random Dude)) (11/30/90)
From: tek@CS.UCLA.EDU (Ted Kim (Random Dude)) >[mod.note; In an effort to put a cap on a thread that has become far >too trivial, let me suggest that the battle of Kursk was larger than >any during the Arab-Israeli wars. If I'm wrong, correct me. - Bill ] I believe you are wrong on this one Bill. The battle of "Chinese Farm" in the 1973 October War was the largest tank battle in history, surpassing even Kursk in WWII. -ted Ted Kim Internet: tek@penzance.cs.ucla.edu UCLA Computer Science Department UUCP: ...!{uunet|ucbvax}!cs.ucla.edu!tek 3804C Boelter Hall Phone: (213)206-8696 Los Angeles, CA 90024 FAX: (213)825-2273
amoss%BATATA.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (Amos Shapira) (12/14/90)
From: Amos Shapira <amoss%BATATA.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> Hello, I got the numbers. You were right, the number of tanks used during the Yom Kippur war (which was the largest Israeli-Arab war) was far smaller than the number of tanks used in the Kursk Battle (1943, BTW there was another Kursk battle in 1941). The numbers: Kursk: 6000 tanks involved. I didn't understand from the source (see below) if this is the number of German tanks (seems more likely to me) or the total. Yom Kippur: 1300- Syrian tanks the day the war broke. 1700 Egyptian tanks (out of 2200) at the same time. Other numbers: 3000 tanks lost for the Germans during the battle of Kursk. Probebly the same but a little bit less were lost for the Russians. 177 Israeli tanks in the Golan the day the war broke. 268 Israeli tanks in Sinai at the same time, only 3 of them on the water line, the rest were 5-10 Kilometers eastward. 1000 Egyptian tanks on the eastern shore of the Cannel in 14 October 1973. 200 of them were hevily hit in this day. Only 20 Israeli tanks hit in this day (this was the turnning point of the war). Refferences: The Encyclopedia of Military History, Second Revised Edition. The Dictionary of Battles. The Lexicon of the Security of Israel. Bye, --Amos Shapira amoss@batata.huji.ac.il
ccoprmd@prism.gatech.edu (Matthew DeLuca) (12/15/90)
From: ccoprmd@prism.gatech.edu (Matthew DeLuca) In article <1990Dec14.003407.28651@cbnews.att.com> amoss%BATATA.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (Amos Shapira) writes: > Kursk: 6000 tanks involved. I didn't understand from the source (see > below) if this is the number of German tanks (seems more likely to > me) or the total. In _The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers_, by Paul Kennedy, he mentions that in the Battle of Kursk, the Germans had 2700 tanks, and the Russians 4500, for a total of 7200. In that battle, over half of the Russian tanks were destroyed, but almost the entire German force was obliterated. He used this battle as an example of how modern warfare depended much more than in the past on the productive capacity of the national economy. I'd recommend this book to the readers of this group, personally...it doesn't deal primarily with military battles, but it shows (among other things) how warfare in the last five centuries has changed as a result of changing economies and technology. A good read. -- Matthew DeLuca Georgia Institute of Technology Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, Office of Information Technology for they are subtle, and quick to anger. Internet: ccoprmd@prism.gatech.edu