henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) (12/12/90)
From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) >From: Paul Stafford <pauls@hpsrdcb.hp.com> >>tactics of Erich Hartmann... the greatest ace of all time, who scored >>352 confirmed kills between 1942 and 1945 without ever getting hurt or >>losing a wingman. > > not exactly- as I recall, he was shot down 7 times, and collided with >target wreckage at least once, downing himself in the process... In fact, he was shot down 16 times and bailed out twice (ref: Edward H. Sims's "The Greatest Aces"), and in fact he was captured (briefly) once. However, my statement still stands: he was never hurt, and never lost a wingman (although he once came close, when a very inexperienced wingman had to bail out). He was also proud of the fact that not once was his aircraft hit by fire from an enemy fighter -- all his losses were to ground fire or bomber defensive guns. > N.B.: IMHO, the best aerial shooter was Hans Joachim Marseille, who, with only >152 kills was much lower on the totem pole, typically used only 10 or so >*shells* per kill, and often came back from his flights( over N Africa) with >7-10 kills. Cited by both sides as the greatest off angle shooter. However, I have heard some doubts raised about his total kill count, on the grounds that British records do not fully support it; some of his kills may have been cripples who made it home. (Mind you, Sims mentions one problem that complicates records checks: Marseille frequently confused Hurricanes with the Curtiss fighters that were also in use in Africa.) He was unquestionably in a class by himself in gunnery, however, even if he was occasionally a bit *too* economical with his ammunition. :-) -- "The average pointer, statistically, |Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology points somewhere in X." -Hugh Redelmeier| henry@zoo.toronto.edu utzoo!henry
drraymond@watdragon.waterloo.edu (Darrell Raymond) (12/15/90)
From: drraymond@watdragon.waterloo.edu (Darrell Raymond) In article <1990Dec12.031305.10254@cbnews.att.com>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: >>From: Paul Stafford <pauls@hpsrdcb.hp.com> >> N.B.:IMHO, the best aerial shooter was Hans Joachim Marseille, who, with only >>152 kills was much lower on the totem pole, typically used only 10 or so >>*shells* per kill, and Henry adds: > He was > unquestionably in a class by himself in gunnery, however, even if he was > occasionally a bit *too* economical with his ammunition. :-) I'd like to put in a plug for George "Buzz" Buerling (sp?), a Canadian who participated in the defence of Malta. Perhaps not as great as Marseille, but Buerling was reputed to have been able to use few shells, but able to tell how many and where they hit. I think Buerling had around forty kills in total before he himself was shot down.
ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib) (12/17/90)
From: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib) *> (Of Erich Hartmann:) *>In fact, he was shot down 16 times and bailed out twice (ref: Edward H. *>Sims's "The Greatest Aces"), and in fact he was captured (briefly) once. *>However, my statement still stands: he was never hurt, and never lost *>a wingman (although he once came close, when a very inexperienced wingman *>had to bail out). He was also proud of the fact that not once was his *>aircraft hit by fire from an enemy fighter -- all his losses were to *>ground fire or bomber defensive guns. Well, the last time he bailed out, it was due to being surrounded by a half dozen of so Mustangs. Realizing he was either going to be shot down or run out of gas, he opted to bail out. *>> N.B.: IMHO, the best aerial shooter was Hans Joachim Marseille, who, with only *>>152 kills was much lower on the totem pole, typically used only 10 or so *>>*shells* per kill, and often came back from his flights( over N Africa) with *>>7-10 kills. Cited by both sides as the greatest off angle shooter. He was also unorthodox in not always fighting at full throttle. Sometimes he'd cut the trottle and extend the flaps to turn inside his opponent. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Iskandar Taib | The only thing worse than Peach ala Internet: NTAIB@AQUA.UCS.INDIANA.EDU | Frog is Frog ala Peach Bitnet: NTAIB@IUBACS !
ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib) (12/18/90)
From: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib) > I'd like to put in a plug for George "Buzz" Buerling (sp?), a Canadian >who participated in the defence of Malta. Perhaps not as great as Marseille, >but Buerling was reputed to have been able to use few shells, but able to >tell how many and where they hit. I think Buerling had around forty kills >in total before he himself was shot down. The defence of Malta for some time was carried out by three Gloster Gladiator biplanes (dubbed Faith, Hope and Charity). Was Buerling one of the Gladiator pilots? Pretty amazing, considering they faced an enemy with far superior numbers of higher performance aircraft. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Iskandar Taib | The only thing worse than Peach ala Internet: NTAIB@AQUA.UCS.INDIANA.EDU | Frog is Frog ala Peach Bitnet: NTAIB@IUBACS !