[sci.military] Battle of Britain tactics vs the Japanese

henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) (12/09/90)

From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
>From: Wu Liu <wul@sco.COM>
>... The Tigers stuck primarily to Claire
>Chennault's tactic of hitting and running in their P-40s, while the
>RAF pilots, veterans of the Battle of Britain, tried to turn with the
>Japanese.

Tsk tsk.  Poor tactics, regardless of the opponent.  Much better to size
up the situation carefully, make a single hit-and-run pass, and reconsider
the situation carefully before making another (should it be necessary),
carefully avoiding dogfighting at all times and never getting greedy.

Should these seem like wimpy tactics, consider that they were the preferred
tactics of Erich Hartmann... the greatest ace of all time, who scored
352 confirmed kills between 1942 and 1945 without ever getting hurt or
losing a wingman.
-- 
"The average pointer, statistically,    |Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology
points somewhere in X." -Hugh Redelmeier| henry@zoo.toronto.edu   utzoo!henry

pauls@hpsrdcb.hp.com (Paul Stafford) (12/11/90)

From: Paul Stafford <pauls@hpsrdcb.hp.com>

>Should these seem like wimpy tactics, consider that they were the preferred
>tactics of Erich Hartmann... the greatest ace of all time, who scored
>352 confirmed kills between 1942 and 1945 without ever getting hurt or
>losing a wingman.

 not exactly- as I recall, he was shot down 7 times, and collided with 
target wreckage at least once, downing himself in the process. his technique
of shooting only when extremely close was one secret to his scores... 

 N.B.: IMHO, the best aerial shooter was Hans Joachim Marseille, who, with only
152 kills was much lower on the totem pole, typically used only 10 or so
*shells* per kill, and often came back from his flights( over N Africa) with
7-10 kills. Cited by both sides as the greatest off angle shooter.

thornley@uunet.UU.NET (David H. Thornley) (12/14/90)

From: plains!umn-cs!LOCAL!thornley@uunet.UU.NET (David H. Thornley)
In article <1990Dec8.222406.28016@cbnews.att.com> henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>
>
>From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
>>From: Wu Liu <wul@sco.COM>
>>... The Tigers stuck primarily to Claire
>>Chennault's tactic of hitting and running in their P-40s, while the
>>RAF pilots, veterans of the Battle of Britain, tried to turn with the
>>Japanese.
>
>Tsk tsk.  Poor tactics, regardless of the opponent.  Much better to size
>up the situation carefully, make a single hit-and-run pass, and reconsider
>the situation carefully before making another (should it be necessary),
>carefully avoiding dogfighting at all times and never getting greedy.
>
Like all tactics, these are situational.  Hit, run, and hit again are
well suited to many situations, but not all.  It will work best if
the attacker has a performance and visibility advantage over the
target; the performance advantage to intercept the target several
times, and the visibility advantage so the attacker has some chance
of breaking the defender's visual tracking while either keeping the
defender spotted or re-acquiring him.  It does have the great advantage
of keeping the energy level up.

Turning tactics have two major flaws.  First, it is suicide to turn
with an opponent who does it better than you.  Second, even if
you win, you will be slow and probably low, and hence a sitting
duck for people who like to swoop in for hit-and-run shots at
easy targets.

DHT

ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib) (12/17/90)

From: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib)
>>... The Tigers stuck primarily to Claire
>>Chennault's tactic of hitting and running in their P-40s, while the
>>RAF pilots, veterans of the Battle of Britain, tried to turn with the
>>Japanese.

Well, I went back and re-read the part where
the British send the Spitfire squadron to 
Australia. It took place in March 1942, so 
the Spitfires were probably Mk. Vs (or even
the earlier Mk. IIs). The Mk. IX and VIII 
didn't enter service until mid-1943, I be-
lieve. The Mk. Vs probably didn't have too 
much of a speed advantage over Zeros.



>Should these seem like wimpy tactics, consider that they were the preferred
>tactics of Erich Hartmann... the greatest ace of all time, who scored
>352 confirmed kills between 1942 and 1945 without ever getting hurt or
>losing a wingman.


Hartmann had another interesting tactic for
escaping. When someone was on his tail, they 
would have to pull a lead on him for a de-
flection shot. So at some point his airplane
would be under his pursuer's nose and invisi-
ble. When this happened, he'd shove forward 
on the stick and dissapear without being no-
ticed. Hartmann fought entirely on the Eastern
front, but this trick would be very effective 
against earlier Spitfires, which had problems 
with the engine cutting out under negative 
Gs.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iskandar Taib                        | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: NTAIB@AQUA.UCS.INDIANA.EDU |    Frog is Frog ala Peach
Bitnet:   NTAIB@IUBACS               !

adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt) (12/21/90)

From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>

In article <1990Dec17.051624.29937@cbnews.att.com> ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib) writes:
>
>Well, I went back and re-read the part where
>the British send the Spitfire squadron to 
>Australia. It took place in March 1942, so 
>the Spitfires were probably Mk. Vs (or even
>the earlier Mk. IIs). The Mk. IX and VIII 
>didn't enter service until mid-1943, I be-
>lieve. The Mk. Vs probably didn't have too 
>much of a speed advantage over Zeros.

The Spitfire Mk IX entered service in mid-1942; the Mk VIII entered service
in 1943.  The reason for this was the Focke-Wulf 190.  The Fw 190 was first
encountered in late 1941, and totally outclassed the Spitfire Mk V.  Rolls-
Royce designed a new version of the Merlin engine to give the Spitfire more
power, and the Mk VIII was designed to use it.  The RAF were desperate,
though, and couldn't wait for the new version to come out.  So the new engine
was put into a slightly adapted Mk V airframe; the result was the Mk IX.

As for speeds: the maximum speed of the A6M2 Zero of 1940 was 316 mph; the
1943 A6M3 could do 336 mph.  By comparison, the Spitfire Mk II had a top
speed of 354 mph, the Mk V had a top speed of 374 mph, and the Mk IX could
do 415 mph.

 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

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