x35147d3@usma8.usma.edu (Bergman Charles CDT) (12/15/90)
From: x35147d3@usma8.usma.edu (Bergman Charles CDT)
ATF Competition Update
The Lockheed-Boeing-General Dynamics Advanced Tactical Fighter team's
YF-22 Lighting II completed the first in flight launch of a missile a week ago
at the China Lake Naval Weapons Test Center. This is a significant first for
the YF-22 over the YF-23. The missile was an internally mounted, rail launched
AIM-9 Sidewinder (probably an AIM-9L or AIM-9M).
The race between the two competing teams has becoming very serious as some
of the individual companys involved have their future at stake! The current
Air Force plan is a winner-take-all deal for the ATF and for a follow on
aircraft to be the NATF for the long term replacement of the F-14 Tomcat
series. Some people bet that like the 1970s YF-16 - YF-17 competition, the Air
Force might by one teams and the NAVY by the other teams upgrade for Naval
warfare.
I'd have to point out that the YF-22 appears to have a greater degree of
adaptation to the carrier capability then the long and weak YF-23. We will see
what happens. Northrop better get something out of either the B-2 or the YF-23
Black Widow II or else it might be up the creek!
The basic production run for the Air Force winner should start producing by
1996 and extend for some years to a total of 750 airframes.
Big Bucks at stake!
Charles K. Bergman
x35147d3@usma8.usma.edu *************************************
CDT USMA'93 * Peace through superior firepower! *
P.O. Box 54, U.S.C.C. *************************************
West Point, NY 10997military@cbnews.att.com (William B. Thacker) (12/19/90)
From: Dean Helm <cse.ogi.edu!sequent!dino>
In the December issue of U.S. NEWS they have an article on the
YF-23 "Black Widow " and the YF-22 "Lightning" the next generation
ATF "Advance tactical Fighter". These 2 aircraft are in competition
for a 750 jet contract with the Air Force.
My question is, can these jets be used in combat? What
better way to find out how good these jets are than in actual
combat. Saudi Arabia would be a real good testing ground on how they
would fair if a war broke out.
Any comments?
shafer@skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) (12/20/90)
From: shafer@skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) Dean Helm <cse.ogi.edu!sequent!dino> asks: >In the December issue of U.S. NEWS they have an article on the >YF-23 "Black Widow " and the YF-22 "Lightning" the next generation >ATF "Advance tactical Fighter". These 2 aircraft are in competition >for a 750 jet contract with the Air Force. >My question is, can these jets be used in combat? What >better way to find out how good these jets are than in actual >combat. Saudi Arabia would be a real good testing ground on how they >would fair if a war broke out. > Any comments? Yes. This is a very bad idea. These aircraft are prototypes. They're the first hack at making the plane right. Despite what the computational aerodynamicists and the flight control engineers and the wind tunnel people and the simulation teams say, everything up to actual flight test is just speculation (sometimes very good speculation, sometimes very bad). To mangle a metaphor, flight test is where the rubber meets the road. After the F-15 had been flown for a while in Cat I testing, a number of stability and control/aerodynamic problems were discovered. The fixes were to clip the wing tips and to put a snag in the rolling tail. No one predicted it; it showed up in flight test. These aircraft are filled with instrumentation. Not the usual payload for wartime. These aircraft are not built for "real" maintainence. They're essentially one-offs, designed to be maintained by a dedicated team. They haven't been ruggedized and simplified so that regular USAF crews can maintain them. We (NASA Dryden) fly a lot of one-off research planes and I can tell you that planes like this are not ready to go to war. Here's a joke that was current when the Navy was trying to make the F-18 flyable: The three great American lines are 1. The check is in the mail. 2. Of course I'll respect you in the morning. 3. We'll fix it in the next release of the flight software. -- Mary Shafer shafer@skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov ames!skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov!shafer NASA Ames Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA Of course I don't speak for NASA "A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all"--Unknown US fighter pilot
bjohnson@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Brett W Johnson) (12/20/90)
From: bjohnson@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Brett W Johnson) In article <1990Dec19.010923.26217@cbnews.att.com> writes: > > In the December issue of U.S. NEWS they have an article on the > YF-23 "Black Widow " and the YF-22 "Lightning" the next generation > ATF "Advance tactical Fighter". These 2 aircraft are in competition > for a 750 jet contract with the Air Force. > > My question is, can these jets be used in combat? What > better way to find out how good these jets are than in actual > combat. Saudi Arabia would be a real good testing ground on how they > would fair if a war broke out. > > Any comments? Yeah, it is a very bad idea. These are *test* aircraft which are do not neccessarily have all the bugs worked out yet. Want to lose a 200 M aircraft because the ECM gear doesn't work right? Anyway even if they were perfect there is such a thing as statistical uncertainty. The poorer aircraft could last several weeks while the better was shot down on its first mission. Now if we had 20 of each say... -- -Brett These opinions are my own and bjohnson@athena.mit.edu do not neccessarily reflect bjohnson@micro.ll.mit.edu those of my employer or MIT.
ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib) (12/20/90)
From: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib) > In the December issue of U.S. NEWS they have an article on the > YF-23 "Black Widow " and the YF-22 "Lightning" the next generation Interesting that the names given to these two airplanes once belonged to two airplanes with the same twin-engine, twin-boom plan- form! (Of course, the P-61 Black Widow was quite a bit bigger than the P-38). -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Iskandar Taib | The only thing worse than Peach ala Internet: NTAIB@AQUA.UCS.INDIANA.EDU | Frog is Frog ala Peach Bitnet: NTAIB@IUBACS ! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
twb@goanna.cs.rmit.OZ.AU (Tony Basaranowicz) (12/21/90)
From: twb@goanna.cs.rmit.OZ.AU (Tony Basaranowicz) >From: Dean Helm <cse.ogi.edu!sequent!dino> > In the December issue of U.S. NEWS they have an article on the > YF-23 "Black Widow " and the YF-22 "Lightning" the next generation > ATF "Advance tactical Fighter". These 2 aircraft are in competition > for a 750 jet contract with the Air Force. > My question is, can these jets be used in combat? What > better way to find out how good these jets are than in actual > combat. Saudi Arabia would be a real good testing ground on how they > would fair if a war broke out. > > Any comments? I'm sure that most people that are following the development of the YF-23 and YF-22 are eager to see how well they will perform in combat-type sit- uations. However, when you only have two of each (different engines), you can't seriously consider losing expensive hardware that has not yet logg- ed valuable experimental and performance data. Also, pilot training would have to be a non-trivial point of contention - even with simulators and a limited number of hours of flight time, the pilots will need to get reas- onably well acquainted with their cockpits and get used to the flying characteristics of the aircraft. Finally, (for me anyway) how about the mating of various weapons that the aircraft would need? There's a lot more to strapping on missiles and guns, even if the aircraft has smart weapons systems. Call me a wimp if you want to, but I'd prefer to see these ATF candidates pitted against themselves in a head-to-head showdown in a year or two, rather than scattered over some desert because they hadn't been tested to any extent. Tony Basaranowicz, (twb@goanna.cs.rmit.OZ.AU) .-------. Dept. of Comp. Sci., ._____.:'____|____\___. ________ Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology, [_ .-. | | .-: | ______ GPO Box 2476V, Melbourne, 3001, `;: :=========: :=='_____ Victoria, Australia. "-" "-" Ph: +61 3 660 3576 Fax: +61 3 662 1617 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
reddy@mips.COM (T.S. Reddy) (12/22/90)
From: reddy@mips.COM (T.S. Reddy) >From: Dean Helm <cse.ogi.edu!sequent!dino> > > In the December issue of U.S. NEWS they have an article on the > YF-23 "Black Widow " and the YF-22 "Lightning" the next generation > ATF "Advance tactical Fighter". These 2 aircraft are in competition > for a 750 jet contract with the Air Force. > On a related note, both of them can go supersonic without afterburners. Can anyone explain how they achieve this? Is the main reason the new engines? Thanks, -- T.S.Reddy e-mail(Constructive): reddy@mips.com e-mail(Destructive): /dev/null
ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib) (12/28/90)
From: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib) >>In the December issue of U.S. NEWS they have an article on the >>YF-23 "Black Widow " and the YF-22 "Lightning" the next generation >>ATF "Advance tactical Fighter". These 2 aircraft are in competition >>for a 750 jet contract with the Air Force. >>My question is, can these jets be used in combat? What >>better way to find out how good these jets are than in actual >>combat. Saudi Arabia would be a real good testing ground on how they >>would fair if a war broke out. One aircraft that was badly delayed due to misuse of the prototype was the P-38 Lightning. The first prototype was destroyed when the AAF decided to use it to break a speed record or two. As a result, the airplane was not ready for combat when the Air Force needed it, and fighter pilots in the Pacific had to make do with the inferior P-35s, P-39s and P-40s during the first few months of the war. (From Martin Caidin's book "Fork Tailed Devil") -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Iskandar Taib | The only thing worse than Peach ala Internet: NTAIB@AQUA.UCS.INDIANA.EDU | Frog is Frog ala Peach Bitnet: NTAIB@IUBACS ! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------