ESVENSSON%brage.qz.se@SEARN.SUNET.SE (Erik Svensson) (01/19/91)
From: Erik Svensson <ESVENSSON%brage.qz.se@SEARN.SUNET.SE> >Mike Schmitt writes: > My ol' Brigade Commander (1st Bde, 1st Div) was an infantry lieutenant > during the Korean War. He told us that an interesting phenomena occurs > when your unit is overrun (as his company was in Korea). Once overrun, > the survivors are no longer in danger - since the enemy forces that > overrun you are now past you and not firing at you - you're safe!? > > Hmmmmmmm. Anyone believe that? > > > mts In fact I do. When I made my military service I read a study about the survival of Special Forces-like units. For the ones tasked with long range recon, inserted by air, the most dangerous moments was a, when the aircraft pentrated the front-line and the enemy air-defences and b, when the units would try to get back through FRIENDLY lines. Since the units will have problems keeping up on the local passwords, they will have to convince the guards that they're really good guys. For foot recon people, the risks were the same. That is, the most dangerous time is the passing through the enemy lines. Once you are through, if you keep off the roads, you are pretty safe. Reinforcements going to the front will most probably keep to the roads, and if you are off them and only observing, you can feel safe. Sabotage and ambushes will radically increase the danger to the unit, especially if the enemy has special units for rear security. (USSR do have this kind of units). Erik Svensson Research Officer Guided Weapons Division National Defense Research Establishment (FOA) Stockholm, Sweden net.address: esvensson@brage.qz.se "I've got LOT'S of common sense, I just choose to disregard it"--Calvin
major@uunet.UU.NET (Mike Schmitt) (01/24/91)
From: bcstec!shuksan!major@uunet.UU.NET (Mike Schmitt) > From: Erik Svensson <ESVENSSON%brage.qz.se@SEARN.SUNET.SE> > >Mike Schmitt writes: > > My ol' Brigade Commander (1st Bde, 1st Div) was an infantry lieutenant > > during the Korean War. He told us that an interesting phenomena occurs > > when your unit is overrun (as his company was in Korea). Once overrun, > > the survivors are no longer in danger - since the enemy forces that > > overrun you are now past you and not firing at you - you're safe!? >In fact I do. When I made my military service I read a study about the survival >of Special Forces-like units. For the ones tasked with long range recon, >inserted by air, the most dangerous moments was a, when the aircraft pentrated >the front-line and the enemy air-defences and b, when the units would try to >get back through FRIENDLY lines. Actually we're talking about two different things here. I was talking about a 'standard' infantry unit on the defense that gets attacked and overrun - my brigade commander was finding some macabre humor in an event that he survived. You, on the other hand, were describing a 'standard' battlefield mode of operation - Long Range Reconnaissance Patrols - deep into enemy held territory. LRRP missions are exclusively reconnaissance and intelligence gathering - and to avoid engaging the enemy - if engaged their mission is compromised, and they are extracted. Ergo - "movement" is the enemy of the LRRP. However, once on the ground and in position - they are very, very difficult to find. In Europe, on numerous Reforger exercises, I was privilidged to work with some outstanding LRRP units - French, German, and British. The 13th Regiment de Dragoons Parachutists (the Major commanding was a veteran of Dien Bien Phu), the 12th Fehrnspaeh Companie (German), and the British SAS. All of them in their own style were highly trained and motivated. The French were very disciplined - uniforms and appearance very soldierly - they seemed 'slippery and sneaky' insert-move-extract only at night - and operate alone (one's or two's) and were NEVER discovered (except once - and that's another story). The Germans were a little lax in appearance and discipline but would operate up to 7 days without resupply and (obviously) blend in to the local environment. And they were very methodolical in the operations. The British were the sloppiest in appearance (unmilitary long hair and beards/mustaches), unkempt uniforms, kind of rude and beligerent to others - each, over 6 feet talk, over 200 pounds - and pure business on the ground - you knew these guys were fighters. LRRPS normally operate at 'Corps-level' and receive their mission-guidance from the Corps G2 Recon officer (and will report directly to him - sometimes *only* to him and no other). The U.S. does NOT have a TO&E LRRP organization like other NATO armies. Some divisions and brigades may have formed a provisional recon outfit for their own needs - but nothing like the true LRRP for deep insert into the enemy rear areas. In Vietnam, Special Forces Recon Teams (operating under the auspices of MACSOG) did conduct 'LRRP-type' operations "outside of South Vietnam" and were very successful. (I was a 'Prairie Fire' Intelligence Officer, MACSOG Ops-20, '69-'70). If LRRPS are operating in the gulf - we probably won't know for sure until the after-action-reports start getting published. mike schmitt "War is Hell!" "And a firefight isn't too neat, either!" - sign in Officer's Club, CCN, Danang